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Hello all:
When Catawiki started up I had several complaints about it and posted them on the forum. I still have several concerns about them and wanted to see whether other forum members had had similar negative experiences to mine.
Just from watching Peter's weekly video and looking at the items posted on bidamount.com it seems clear that European sellers, who have a much greater availability of genuine Chinese antiques than sellers in the USA, have moved to Catawiki. eBay has therefore been largely left with occasional good items and a huge number of fakes. So, if one is in the market for buying something in the $500 to $2,000 range one has little choice but to use Catawiki.
Catawiki has certain obvious upfront advantages over eBay when it comes to Chinese items. It would seem that Catawiki has "experts" assessing each item. I'm not sure how good these experts are, but they do seem to be able to keep away the thousands of fakes that plague potential buyers of Chinese art on eBay. It is also helpful that the "experts" provide a price estimate range like the major auction houses do so one can determine in advance the affordability of items offered. Another advantage of Catawiki is that the photographs of Chinese antiques are numerous and of good quality. However, with an auction charge to buyers of 9% per item one is paying for these various services.
However, Catawiki falls down on the business side of things. My experience is that they are unable to deal with messages timeously and that any message sent to Catawiki is virtually useless. On eBay one can contact sellers through eBay and I have found that most sellers reply via eBay within one to two days. With Catawiki by the time the message is answered the auction involved is in the distant past. Last weekend a Catawiki seller had a Kangxi Klapmuts bowl with Imari colors in which I was interested up for auction and that I first saw as a listed item on bidamount.com. I had several questions about the item that only the seller would have been able to answer. I wrote when the item first was posted on the Catawiki website about ten days previously. To date I have received only an automated reply to my inquiry and I decided not to bid on the item that eventually sold below the estimated price range.
In late November I bid on and won on Catawiki a 16-inch blue and white Qianlong charger for which I paid in excess of $2,000. Today, seventeen days later, I have not received the item and tracking information shows that the sender is "preparing to ship the item" whatever that is supposed to mean. I'm fully aware that shipments are likely to be delayed in the Holiday period. However, my inquiries about the item addressed to both Catawiki and the seller have fallen on deaf ears or blind eyes. I therefore decided to take the step of placing the item in dispute with the credit card company and that got Catawiki's attention. They sent an immediate email asking me to remove the dispute. Since my billing cycle with the credit card company is such that I would have had to pay over $2,000 to them for an item that no one knows anything about I thought a prudent step would be not to pay and the credit card company has issued a temporary credit for the item, the shipping fee, the 9% auction charge and the foreign transaction fee. If the item eventually arrives I will cancel the dispute and pay for the item. I feel much better now that I will not have to make a payment until the item arrives and if it does not arrive I have been told that the credit will become permanent.
Regarding a comparison with eBay there is at least a telephone number to call in the USA when problems such as mine arise and I have found the customer service to be of good quality. They also promise that if an item is not received one will be made whole.
I would be interested to hear the experiences of other forum members who buy Chinese art on Catawiki. My feeling now is that even though Catawiki is potentially a very good source of reasonably-priced and genuine Chinese antique items that I would be very leery about doing business with Catawiki again in the future.
Regards,
Errol
Hi Errol,
I've had similar experiences of non-communication and non-shipment with some sellers on eBay and great experiences with sellers on Catawiki, so I think to a certain extent, it depends on which sellers you deal with. Although I do agree that eBay's customer service is better than Catawiki's. I don't have a great sample size of purchases though, so I'm curious as to what others have to say. I'm sorry you had to deal with that, I know it can be a headache. I hope it all works out for you.
John
Hello.
So, big disclaimer...I've never used EBay or Catawiki for buying, but I've sold on EBay.
That said, I understand your frustration in the delay of shipping and having not receivied your item, yet having the cost reflect on your credit card. I'd be upset, too.
But, perhaps there is a reason outside the control of the folks at Catawiki, and possibly outside the control of the buyer.
As a former banker, if you paid with your credit card, you are 100% protected if there is fraud, so I am confident you will not loose your $2,000.
I think this one experience should not be how you determine whom to buy from. In fact, some of the things you stated about buying in the USA vs. Europe, and buying from EBay vs. Catawiki, do not line up with my buying experiences. Given the rarity of good Chinese antiques, I recommend you buy wherever good pieces arise, and accept that delays might happen.
Honestly, what choice do we buyers have but to accept some adversity?
I'll give you a recent example where I have encountered a delay... not exactly the same situation as you, but perhaps you'll better understand that there are always setbacks, even at the highest level.
I sold a really great piece with a major auction house this year. Prior to the auction, I was contacted and asked to provide buyers with an extended payment period because that would increase bidding and likely lead to a higher result.
I considered my options, but in the end I declined to extend the payment period, and opted for the standard 35 day payment period, preferring that I get paid sooner, even if the sale amount was for less money.
The sale went very well, but come 35 days I was notified that the buyer needed more time. The contract stipulates that the auction house can extend the payment to 95 days after the sale at their discretion.
So, despite wanting a quick resolution, here I am still waiting, and quite possibly I will be asked to make an additional extension.
Seems unfair, but what option do I have? The sale result was very high, so do I cut off my nose to spite my face? No. I need to accept adversity as part of the process, and steam ahead to my next big purchase and sale.
My advice to you - Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If you find another great buy on Catawiki, pursue it, but set expectations for a longer delivery time so you're not so disappointed if there us a delay.
I hope your Qianlong charger arrives soon and safely, and that it is even better than you expected in terms of quality!
Hello John: I did not mean to imply that eBay is perfect or even that it is good. I fully agree that one has to check on the seller before bidding. However, the seller ratings are often unhelpful since I think that eBay screens out bad ratings or dilutes them so that they are not easily apparent. However, I have had a fairly large number of positive experiences on eBay and eBay comes down hard on sellers who don't meet its requirements. Catawiki by contrast does not seem interested in the concerns of buyers. Lately, I have found buying Chinese art to be an exhausting business. After one has dealt with the seller and suffered the frustrations of dealing with the totally inept United States Postal service (which most sellers seem to prefer to the much better FedEx and UPS delivery methods) it is really difficult for me to enjoy having the item.
Regards,
Errol
Thanks for your very kind and thoughtful reply! Buying Chinese art can be addictive. After every adverse experience, I swear that will be my last purchase especially since I no longer have space to display items. Then I see something that I have to have and am back in the game!
Your experience sounds worse than mine. I suspect that you have a buyer who has changed his/her mind or who couldn't afford the item in the first place, but I hope I am wrong in these regards.
I think I did the right thing by disputing the charge and getting a temporary credit issued by the credit card company. I have so many Chinese items that even though I like the charger and would like to have it, I won't miss it if it never arrives. I doubt that fraud is involved here. I think it is just ineptitude and unwillingness on the part of the seller to check on what has happened to the package if he has indeed shipped it and Catawiki is unbelievably inept. However, by disputing the charge and getting a temporary credit I think I have shifted the onus from myself to Catawiki and the seller. If the item has disappeared into thin air they can sort it out and take the loss. I hope that you are correct that the credit card company will find in my favor if the charger never arrives.
Good luck with your delayed payment. I love Chinese art and having it around me is very soothing in these difficult times. However, the business side of it is appallingly shady and annoying. It is not as glamorous as many portray it.
Regards,
Errol
Hello: To respond to one of your points, I'm not too worried about delays in items arriving if I know what their current status is. A tremendous source of anxiety though is for a costly item to be in limbo where no one knows where it is, as seems to be the case with this Qianlong charger. Catawiki's attitude that the item is being prepared for shipment 17 days after the auction seems too nonchalant for me.
Errol
@erroll I completely understand. But, as a fellow buyer, I think finding a piece we want to own becomes increasingly more difficult each year due to scarcity. I just think you had the good fortune to get the piece, so take comfort that it belongs to you, however long it takes to arrive.
Admittedly, not a virtue that I hold firmly, but patience brother in arms! It shall come! 😎
ErrolL,
Been using eBay for over 20 years and don't have one instance of problems. Recently had one instance of seller not shipping and opened a case with eBay quickly refunding my money. Have started looking at Catawiki and there are nice items to be had but when I do spot something good the shipping from Europe can be outrageous. But if I find something good and shipping is OK I will pull the trigger.
George
@greeno107 As for your situation, congratulations on the big auction success, and as far as I'm concerned it is outrageous that the auction companies give that much time before payment is expected. My feeling is that payment should be right away. But I know nothing of the world of big dollar finance and dealings, so that is just my naive opinion on the matter, but like Peter always says, "If you buy something, pay your bill!" It's really not complicated. They either have the money to buy it or they don't. It seems so shady that they are having to rearrange things etc to try and come up with the funds to pay you. For your sake I hope it works out. I also have the understanding that the big houses don't look kindly upon non payers, so I imagine you have that on your side as well. Surely the buyer has a reputation to be concerned about so it is in their best interest to pay up as soon as possible.
I'm with you - you bought it, you knew the due date, you need to pay, or you loose the piece. Simple, right?
But, half a million dollars....mmmm....little hard to fight it just on principle.
@greeno107 Yeah, for half a mil I'd probably consider turning up my patience knob a notch or two.
I think we must remember that an auction win is a legal contract. The buyer should pay immediately. On winning an eBay auction, I have always paid via PayPal immediately I have won the item. The other side of the contract, however, is that the seller must ship the item in a timely manner, well packaged, in good condition and as described. The platform for the sale whether it be eBay, Catawiki or Sotheby's also has a responsibility to see that the contract is enforced. It is intolerable when Catawiki or an auction house feels that after payment has been made that they no longer have any responsibility for the sale. We also need to remember that the auction houses are in this to make money. By and large they have scant interest in buyers' concerns. I think it unacceptable that an auction house should keep extending the time for payment to sellers. The logical outcome of such a practice is to blackmail the seller into lowering the price.
I know a Chinese lady living in the USA who ran a small company selling high-end Chinese antiques. She occasionally held auctions on eBay. I once bid on and won an item at one of her auctions and paid too much because as she told me later a mainland Chinese bidder with a bad reputation had kept upping his bids. I was amazed when she told me via email that she was refunding part of my payment that she thought was an overpayment because of the use of eBay as a gambling venue. One rarely encounters ethics of that type in the field of Chinese antiques. She told me also that it was not uncommon for mainland Chinese buyers to win a piece at her annual eBay auction and then refuse to pay unless she gave a large discount. She was so disgusted that she has virtually given up on selling Chinese antiques and her wonderful scholarship in this field has been lost.
The bottom line is that the field of Chinese antiques is a very shady business replete with distasteful and unseemly boosterism, false claims, fake items and overemphasis on prices obtained. There is a strange dichotomy between the elegance and refinement of these wonderful items and the people who are involved in their promotion and sales.
Errol
I agree, but will your patience be rewarded? I think your buyer is holding out for a substantial discount or just has decided not to pay for it. Please let us know how this turns out. And it is naive for those who think that mainland Chinese buyers and others worry about their reputations. In the extremely rare instances where eBay bans nonpayers, they simply re-register by reversing their names or getting a friend or family member to sign up for them. They are absolutely and totally without shame.
Errol
@erroll What an amazing story about your Chinese lady's auction refund. However, rather than giving up on the whole thing, I think continuing to improve the system is the answer. I am hoping that Peter's new auction site venture will be a step in the right direction. Rules and standards can be established and enforced to minimize shadiness. Good players should be honored while bad actors should be weaned out. It is a process, but if systems are in place with those intentions then it should be manageable. The problem is when there isn't a clear intention to improve and establish effective systems due to negligence or greed and corruption. Your Chinese lady auctioneer would be a valuable resource to help establish better ways. Too bad she got out of the game. We need more like her in it.
Hey guys,
Since I sell on Catawiki from time to time, here are my two cents of opinion...
I think the experts at Catawiki are doing their best but here and there some things might slip through the radar. They have always been helpful, even though less with a detailed explanation on approval or rejection. The other thing is: Experts can change your text and age estimate as they see fit! They usually ask you to change it, but I also have had other experiences... (see below)
I think they are pretty much under pressure to deliver good auction results and keep up the idea of their site being exclusive and trustworthy. For example they changed the feedback page, so older feedbacks disappear after some time and thumbs down with comments can't be seen anymore. This way bad reviews get lost over time. I for example have 57 reviews, all 100% positive but you can only read the last 8 reviews. Putting me under pressure to sell more, so that I have at least some review feedbacks, customers can check and look at...
My worst experience on Catawiki so far has been the sale of a 18th century shoulao figure. Experts didn't share my view on the piece, changed the date to 19th Century and put it up for auction without myself being able to stop the sale (Yes, contacting anyone at Catawiki is a mess!). And after the sale I had to wait 1 month before the buyer paid....
Just a little inside from the sellers point of view!
Best Regards
Carsten
with Best Regards...
Carsten
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