I would keep it as a decorative chair if it fits the room; or sell it to someone wants it as a decorative piece.

Here are two must-read books if you’re interested in collecting Chinese furniture.

@lotusblack Yes, I thought the exact thing!

If he put these chairs on LiveAuctineers, listed them as Zitan, and they were genuinely zitan, how come they didn’t sell?

Well, a few other possibilities ran across my mind.

A- The photos used in the auction showed the current color of the wood, perhaps we’re not detailed enough to show the wood grain, so buyers were not confident in the wood being zitan.

B- The wood is not zitan, but the seller used the presumption of possibly being zitan to try and drive up interest in the chairs.

Psychological warfare is certainly part of the sales process.

What are your thoughts on the carving, construction, and look if the wood, as it pertains to whether or not you’d buy the chairs?

The carving looks very refined good quality. I think the most important part of these chairs are the inscriptions was it added later was it a important gift did someone own these of importance. Do you know what it says isn’t this old writing? The feet have mop ware and the underside is clean and not darkened good signs. But the script needs to be read.

@lotusblack Can you be more specific about what about the carving you like and why?

I’ll post a complete response about what the chairs afterwards.

@greeno107 I know next to nothing about the furniture, but the little bit I have picked up would have led me to believe that based on signs of wear they had some age, and based on the construction and carving they look to be nice quality. I would have not even considered them to be zitan because I'm still baffled by how to determine zitan and huanghuali. The only wood I seem to be getting used to identifying is elm. Speaking of which there is an elm table I have been thinking about buying at a local shop. I should get some pictures and add to this thread. It would be another good study I think. At any rate, I would have determined that $500 would have been an easy price to say yes to for two of these chairs, and if I have the money at the time to spend I would have bought them as you did. John

The carved edges are deep it looks like the entire wood piece was carved out leaving the higher edges. The edges are also thin not bulky. The carved panels are also clean not blocky.  

As a collector, I also have to consider space, usage, dogs, the fact that I already own a late 19th c Chinese hall chair that my husband refers to it as the firewood.  My chair is not Zitan, it is far tatty than yours but personally I prefer it as it has a bat.

So much as I like these chairs of yours, as a collector in my current circumstances I would have to pass. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have bought them if I were you, I probably would have.  It would seem a good risk.  For me, as I said, I would only have bought these if I knew I could off-load quickly even knowing that the person taking them would make more out of them than me.   

Tim, your chairs look dry, they will appear darker after being rubbed with oil, that said, how do you tell zitan from teak? Do you know where they were made? Any place Chinese people lived produced Chinese furniture, how do you tell? I agree they might work best as night stands or hall chairs because they will not be comfortable, place unpopular guests in them so they will not linger. 500.00 seems a good price to me for a reasonable increase in your money, with shipping, it seems you will be in the same boat as the guy who sold them to you. If you show at major antique shows, you may even do better, you would not believe what people get for old beat up farm tables at Roundtop, people with more money than cents/sense as everyone's grandma used to say. Looking for the right look for the weekend "ranch." You may luck onto someone furnishing a Chinese pavilion/pool house. Thanks for livening things up, much appreciated. Sharon

@lotusblack Again, you hit on the important part regarding carving.

While imperial Qing furniture is often highly carved, Ming furniture is almost entirely uncarved… or so it may seem.

Looking more closely, you will notice fine beading, delicate scroll work, and various changes in edging that has been carefully carved out.

So settling aside elaborate carving that screams ‘imperial’,  subtle, delicate carving is a key to identifying high quality.

@sharing You are correct! Not only has the wood dried out, but at some point varnish was applied that sealed the wood. Thus not only prevented the moisture from returning into the wood (I’m in humid Florida, so it’s unusual for wood to dry out), but prevented the patina from accumulating evenly.

This was a major contributor to why the wood could not be easily identified.

So, I spent about an hour cleaning up the second chair.  Take a look at the two chairs together, one in its original purchase condition, and the other is more or less what the piece should look like.

The chairs are 19th c. side chairs made from very good quality hongmu.

Compare to this pair sold by Christie’s.

https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-a-pair-of-chinese-hongmu-side-chairs-5707610/?sc_lang=zh-CN

Regarding the dealer who sold them to me…

I suspect he didn’t  really believe the chairs were zitan, else he would not have priced them at $1,200.  And, since the color of the wood was so light, I suspect Chinese buyers had told him the wood was white ‘suanzhi’, a light colored hongmu that is not very desirable among collectors.

So, he probably was thrilled that I accepted his $500 offer.

How did I know it was not white ‘suanzhi’?  The carving.

The back splat panels depiction of lotus on one chair, and pomegranate on the other, are deep, delicate, and very artistic.

The archaic scrolling dragon apron is extremely deeply carved, and archaic designs are generally found on 18th c. furniture, or exemplary 19th c. pieces.

And most importantly, the fine corner carving on the seat.  It’s an easy detail to overlook, and carving down the edges of the frame of the seat might seem like no big deal, but it definitely is. 

White ‘suanzhi’ hongmu is cheap material and not carved finely.

Did I think it was zitan? I was 99% sure it was not zitan, but not because of the way the wood looked. The clue to the wood was that the chair had no arm rests.

Side chairs are lower on the hierarchy of chairs than those with arm rests. Consequently, they are very often made with lesser quality wood.

But, in the case of my chairs, I suspect they were made for a very wealthy family because the quality of the hongmu is extremely high, looking quite similar in color, grain, and density  as zitan.

No splits, signs of shrinking, and quite resistant to general wear, these chairs are very good quality .
The natural wear you can see is on the feet… water marks, chips and scratches from being moved about on a floor, and some rounding if the edges is they key fo knowing a piece of furniture is genuine.

As for being a piece composed of recycled parts… thus is not the case with these chairs.  The improper use of varnish that lead to irregular development of patina, drying of the wood that lightened the color, and cleaning that focused on smooth surfaces rather than the carved areas, all contributed to the patchwork appearance.

@johnshoe Huanghuali and zitan are a bit tricky, but mostly because collectors (especially beginners) put too much emphasis trying to decipher the grain and color, and not enough time on determining if the type of furniture they are assessing is the type and the quality that would be deserving to be made from zitan or huanghuali.

Look at Ming furniture and Imperial 18th c. furniture sold by Christie’s….. 

Forget about the color and grain of the wood. 

Are you not taken back by the absolute beauty of the form and or carving?

That should be the first step, then followed by the assessment of the color and grain of the wood.

The carving is certainly plenty good to have been rendered on zitan.

😍 I love it, Great story. You just made 3000+ on an afternoon. The carving is indeed very well done and not easy to discern from the other chair. You are the American version of the UK Drew Pritchard. Always on the road searching for a bargain.