Dear Richard,

Quite so.

Personally, I try scrupulously to avoid giving offence in any post that I make on this or on any other Forum.  The bottom line must be courtesy and respect. It is perfectly possible to disagree in an amicable way. Sadly, not all people who express a view follow such principles.

I abandoned subscribing to gotheborg.com, for example, because the 'Dragon' moderators of the site were failing (in my opinion!) to police and take down belittling and patronising comments that certain contributors were routinely making about the views of others. I noticed that some of the threads were turning nothing short of acrimonious, and I am not aware that much was being done to reprimand the culprits.

I sincerely hope that we get none of that tone of comment on this site, although I regret to say that I have noticed it cropping up in one or two posts (and sadly, without naming names, I also notice that one of the perpetrators on here was also at large on gotheborg.com).

So let there be an end to any insulting, belittling, and denigrating comment. This Forum has only shown occasional and local lapses into it; let us be vigilant that it does not grow in any cancerous way to infect discussions more widely.

Alan

Hi Richard,

What I think is, that an opinion is an expression of a point of view usually introduced by I think, I feel, I believe .... etc.  It is not usually a blunt statement of fact.

As I said elsewhere, if you present your items in the manner of "I believe this is such and such because ..." then take on board what others say about them, being willing to acknowledge that if the majority of opinions are not in line with yours that, well, they might have a point, then there can be a discussion which may benefit all of us.  

There is nothing controversial about the statements you have made about the authenticity of various items you own: they are simply not what you think they are, but you seem completely unwilling to accept anyone else's opinion other than your own. 

We are here to discuss, to share, to admire and most of all to learn in a friendly non-judgmental atmosphere.  That, I believe, is what this forum is about. 

That is my opinion.

Best wishes,

Julia

Dear Julia,

Quite so too!

Alan

Thanks, Alan, I just popped back to apologise in case I sounded rude or offensive.   ? 

Hello, Richard

I agree it easily to give a comment on apiece but alway show respect for one another.

some of us don't have the money to buy from   the big auction house me I like the hunt 

about as much as I do collecting and reading the history I don't comment on something 

with out research first. I hope we all learn and enjoy thank to all .John

Hi  to all    

Totally agree  ? 

I would say the problem comes when people make fake accounts to post ridiculous replicas to laugh at other well meaning peoples expense.

Giovanni was too rough on you Richard, no doubt. He basically has challenged you to prove your sea vases are genuine, and I can empathise with your feelings being hurt and it does hurt peoples opinion of each other.  I felt you handled it very well 🙂 and perhaps Giovanni  feels so strongly that your vases/tea pots are not genuine that he is prepared to go to war with you personally on this. 

I did feel along the lines of what Alan is saying and also what you are saying Richard, because you were there on the ground in these markets in person and experienced these events personally. This i felt was your right and your area and provenance. 

Ironically i think we have to accept that this is the culture of people in this business and we all have to be prepared for some harsh criticism now and then and try not to take it personally.  

I am just an amateur and look up to posters like Giovanni and admire his knowledge and passion. In fact on the help identify this thread. A relatively new poster was asking about 2 large vases and their province. I think 2 posters said they were japanese. 

Well for the first time i knew better 🙂 and knew they were Chinese Satsuma and late 20th century. In that moment i actually felt angry that the posters were saying the vases were Japanese. I had a Giovanni moment, and in that moment i understood his passion. 

To mistake the inferior modern Chinese copies of the far superior Japanese Satsuma was unacceptable. Almost felt like a crime.

This is a really tough one 🙂  To balance and respect the experts their passion and knowledge versus peoples sentimental value for their treasured items. There is a line there, and i think perhaps it was breached. As sentiment and opinion are similar qualities but when they clash, there will be fire and brimstone and sentiment is going to come out the worst. 

I think that in these incidents that both posters should be able to walk away with out feeling personally insulted and the important factor in the solution is always who was ultimately right. 

You have one advantage here Richard as you do not have to proof the age nor the provenance of your sea vases but merely that they are genuinely coming from a sea wreck. Giovanni is definitely of the opinion they are not from a sea wreck and are faked to look like they are.

Dear Alan,

I am sorry to say that I don’t agree completely with you, IF I have understood you correctly.

If I have understood you correctly, what you said is perfect, highly sharable and it should be the basic on any civil place, being it a Forum or else.

But this is true for a place where everyone shares this behavior, where everyone is well minded in being collaborative, open to other’s opinion, open to recognize if they are wrong.

Sadly, your comment is not adequate, in my opinion, to the post that started this thread. Because that post belongs to someone who does exactly the opposite. If you read any of his threads, he is never in the role of asking opinions. He STATES things, plainly that, without the slightest evidence supporting that. And in all his threads all the opinions are against his statements, and some cases (me) asking him to prove what he states for granted. Despite that, he never spent a single word saying that he may be wrong, or a collaborative word. He is simply diverting.

Is that behavior worth to be considered collaborative, etc etc? Is it worth to be treated as a different opinion? Isn’t it very dangerous to whom access here in search of acquiring knowledge? Really?

All this is referred to the case in particular. As for general discussion, I do not think that the aim of this Forum is devoted to pure opinions, like religion for example. We are discussing about real objects, historically documented.

Who gave the right answer here has been Julia.

I would say that Richard is welcome if he will behave as anyone here is, changing his attitude. But I frankly believe, sorry to say, that he will never do that, because the fact that he never did a slightest attempt to be collaborative is proving that he is just making fun of us.

Dear Alan, I do not know how many members here are also active on Gotheborg. You said that “although I regret to say that I have noticed it cropping up in one or two posts (and sadly, without naming names, I also notice that one of the perpetrators on here was also at large on gotheborg.com)”. If in saying that you were referring to myself, I must say that in all conscience (I may be wrong though) what happened to me there is that I have been attacked a couple of times by members that are no more there because of their bad attitudes. I do not think of having attacked someone unless in cases like that of this thread, for avoiding that misleading opinions could lead to wrong beliefs.

I recognize of being often straight in judging a piece. It is because I am convinced that the best way to learn is to face the reality as it is. If, when I start my learning path in something field, people with more experience tells me that what I have bought is horrible, my reaction should be “hey, I am really off then. Evidently I do not see what I should see”. And try to improve my learning.

I am convinced that instead, by saying to a newbie, as many does in case of horrible things “your nice vase is not what it is trying to be” has a wrong effect. What will think a newbie? For sure he will think “hey, I purchased something that it is not the real thing, but the expert found it nice”. Terrible effect, because chances are that he will buy another one if he will have the opportunity. I am convinced that being frank is much more productive.

Anyway, if I have been inadvertently not polite, I ask apologize to anyone. Please consider also that I am not a native English speaker. My English is self-learned and some words of Latin origin have a different meaning in Italian than in English.

Giovanni

Dear Short Dong,

If I have understood you correctly, I have to say something that you will not like. If you will not like, I am sorry, but frankly I feel myself honestly in peace with my conscience, because I am sure that tomorrow you will agree completely.

If I have understood you correctly, you are saying that I have been too rude with Richard, because I told him to prove what he is saying, and he has handled this very well. You also said that Richard may be right because he has been in China and thus he must have experience.

Well, if this is what you meant, I must say that this is just confirming the main accusation that I make to Richard, that he is giving totally wrong beliefs to whom has not enough experience.

Sorry dear Short Dong, but believing that the horrible trash posted by Richard may be genuine is the evidence that you have no experience about the ware of those periods. It is not necessary a big experience, even the more modest book on Song ware is enough. Buy a simple book on Song ware and see if there is a single piece with that horrible shapes. Song ware have an unrivalled elegance.

And thinking that the fact of buying in China means that the purchases are right means that you do not know the reality on that place. I have been in China a few times, I am not simply reporting the general opinion (which BTW I can confirm).

If I may do so, I suggest you to skip Richard’s threads. There is nothing to learn by fakes. And you will avoid to be mislead. It may take a very long time to go back to the right path; beware.

Giovanni

I think those of us from the Goteborg forum are a bit more suspicious of people posting lots of obvious fakes and becoming indignant when they are referred to as fake (after the SY and his many other accounts debacle).

The 'Song' elephant cadogan with the fake shipwreck encrusting was quite humorous I will give him that.

Posted by: clayandbrush

Dear Short Dong,

If I have understood you correctly, I have to say something that you will not like. If you will not like, I am sorry, but frankly I feel myself honestly in peace with my conscience, because I am sure that tomorrow you will agree completely.

If I have understood you correctly, you are saying that I have been too rude with Richard, because I told him to prove what he is saying, and he has handled this very well. You also said that Richard may be right because he has been in China and thus he must have experience.

Well, if this is what you meant, I must say that this is just confirming the main accusation that I make to Richard, that he is giving totally wrong beliefs to whom has not enough experience.

Sorry dear Short Dong, but believing that the horrible trash posted by Richard may be genuine is the evidence that you have no experience about the ware of those periods. It is not necessary a big experience, even the more modest book on Song ware is enough. Buy a simple book on Song ware and see if there is a single piece with that horrible shapes. Song ware have an unrivalled elegance.

And thinking that the fact of buying in China means that the purchases are right means that you do not know the reality on that place. I have been in China a few times, I am not simply reporting the general opinion (which BTW I can confirm).

If I may do so, I suggest you to skip Richard’s threads. There is nothing to learn by fakes. And you will avoid to be mislead. It may take a very long time to go back to the right path; beware.

Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

I basically feel that sentiment is always going to be the loser in these arguments. As far as sentiment goes then i supported your attitude and way of thinking Giovanni. I think that sentiment will always take second place to an appraisal. That is the nature of what you do and other posters here do.

I also think that if you recall some months back there were posters here, that created fake accounts and that were arguing with Peter and attacking his credibility because he chose to call them out as fake and I think that is where Gothenburg came from. Richard has not behaved like that and has handled the criticism openly and honestly and has been very cool about it. 

In summary Alan, Julia and Giovanni that the enemy were the posters that attacked Peter and Richard obviously is not one of them. Even if he is wrong about his vases. 

They have been creating fake threads and  generally disrupting things.I am just saying all of this in case there is any misunderstanding. I don't want this to balloon into an argument between everyone over matters from another site. 

Obviously Richard started this thread because he was hurt by Giovanni's comments which were slightly mocking when he compared him too the crazy prick that fights with Bonhams and tries to sell his vases for $150,000. 

I think i have said more than enough. I think I understand and respect your position Giovanni. You do not need to explain anymore however I think Alan now has to explain the Gothenberg reference 🙂  

I am sure he did not mean you Giovanni but i know you want be satisfied until this is cleared up.

P.s 

Does anyone feel Richards seawreck vases are authentic. If not then why?

I think a big part of what is being missed here is the Goteborg history with a poster that turned out to be a 'troll' with several accounts that made similar posts to Richard (posting obvious fakes but being so confident about their authenticity that they would be indignant at anyone saying that they are likely fake to poke fun at fellow members). If I remember correctly Giovanni encountered this 'troll' on the Goteborg forum too and is likely a bit tired of this kind of thing.