@ming1449  Many thanks to you for your deep dive into finding some information on my bowl.  I sincerely appreciate it.

I know it is not Jiajing period (or Ming for that matter), and as you could see from my original post and title, I have always suspected it was later.  As I said earlier, I believe the bowl to be late Kangxi / early Yongzheng, but in the Ming sty=

My last post(s) simply point out that the design and form do draw from those earlier period, and the foot is formed in a manner correct for the Ming style that it seems to copy, which would explain the apocryphal Jiajing mark.

As for the opinions of your collector friends, I too subscribe to the belief that any piece that defies the conventional designs known for a period is likely a modern copy.  However, the flaw in this theory is:

A) it can apply in reverse, too.  I have never seen a modern copy that looks like my bowl, so does that exclude it from being modern?  Of course not.

B) There are examples of genuine pieces that appear to be 'one of a kind' that show up out of nowhere (in people's attics and such) that are confirmed to be genuine....but this is rare.

So, the theory is not perfect.

As for the suggestion the bowl is 2nd half of the 20th c. or later..... nonsense.  Production of this quality did not take place during Mao, nor the Cultural revolution.  And for this reason, for the bowl to be post 1950, it would have to have been made during the economic growth of the 1990's or later, and I am confident it has been in private collection for longer than that.

My bowl comes from the collection of Ira Koger.  It is the second piece Chinese porcelain I've bought from Mr. Koger's relative who inherited what was not donated to the Ringling Museum.  Mr. Koger was not simply a wealthy collector with no knowledge, but considered a connoisseur of Chinese ceramics.

http://ringlingdocents.org/asian/koger.htm

It seems that Mr. Koger had a particular interest in bowls, as I noticed that a great many of his collection are unusual bowls.  Here are three examples donated to the Ringling's collection that share some likeness in style with my bowl.

I suspect the bowl I bought to be one of a kind (or close to it), and such, almost unsellable without the backing of a major auction house or museum, because it does challenge the common knowledge of what we know of Ming style porcelains of the 18th c.

Until such time as I find some other example of my bowl, I will enjoy the bowl for what it is.

Such is life.  

@greeno107

I am unable to provide any useful information about your bowl, but I was interested to see the image of the Jiajing Kinrande bowl with green overglaze.

I did not know anything about Kinrande bowls before I purchased a 19th century Japanese bowl on eBay and due to the help of members of the forum providing useful information I went on to being able to buy a Jiajing Kinrande bowl with 'Wan Fu Yu Tong' mark, again from eBay. The Metropolitan Museum has a similar bowl with blue overglaze and gilt mount and the British Museum has a red overglaze bowl also with the same mark, although that bowl had been broken into pieces and restored. The reason I was able to purchase my bowl with the rare white overglaze is that the gilding has disappeared, but unusually the decoration has remained as a ghostly pattern! As these wares were made in the Jingdezhen kilns during the Jiajing period, I doubt that your bowl has any connection to the Kinrande example that you have shown.

I have attached some photographs of my bowl.

Kind regards,

Jeremy

@greeno107

A couple of years ago, I visited the Ringling mainly to see the massive Peter Paul Rubins series of paintings.  There was an Asian section, but I don’t have any clear memories of what was on display.

Have you checked with the Ringling to see if Koger might have donated any papers regarding his collection that might give you a clue regarding your bowl?  I have never heard or read anything about 18th century potters replicating Ming footrims.  However, 19th/20th century dealers would not hesitate to grind flat the rims of 18th century pieces to better fit them on a decorative stand.

@william Same for me, I remember the large Rubens religious paintings but if and when I go back to Sarasota, I will check out the Asian ceramics. The Ringling mansion was used for the Great Expectations movie with Anne Bancroft as Miss Havisham. Good idea about contacting their research/acquisitions department.

@greeno107

Hi Greeno - 

Firstly, an apology as I must have misunderstood your post on 17/05/21 which included the following:- 

'So in this case I think the most obvious route to explore better is the possibility that this is a Jiajing bowl' ...

As you had previously, and subsequently said, you now believe this not to be the case ...

I would concur with the theory in  regard that, in most instances  unknow, or recorded, types are likely to be modern interpretations, or pastiches, primarily base upon genuine types, but also agree with  your a/b opinions stated ...

The provenance to Ira Koger is rather interesting as one of the gentleman who gave on opinion on this bowl worked at Bluett's, one of the great old English dealerships, from 1978 until the early 90's, and knew Ira Koger well ...

Unfortunately, the Koger provenance is no guarantee of authenticity, as it was well known that he acquired from a wide range of differing sources, some of which were rather dubious and known to offer very suspect pieces ...

Part of the Koger collection was offered for sale at Sothbeys 24 October 1998, a very unsuccessful sale due to rather high estimates, and 'doubts' expressed regarding some of the pieces ...

Williams suggestion regarding following up on any papers or collection notes the Ringling may hold is a very good one ...

But enjoy the bowl,  for what it is ...

Stuart 

@ming1449  My apologies.  Sometimes my writing runs untethered and a fleeting thought ends up in print.

I do plan to reach out to the museum...perhaps even a visit with the bowl. The museum is only a few hours from my home.

Howeve, I believe the papers on this bowl are with the relative (my client), but as he is 93 years old, he and I have yet to meet in person again since the Covid pandemic, so it's been a year since I've been to his home.  The bowl came through a 3rd party selling on his behalf.

That's very helpful information you've provided on the Sotheby's sale - thank you!  A lot has changed with regards to value over the past 23 years, and perhaps because that sale was relatively unsuccessful explains their willingness to sell privately.

Yes, there are no guarantees of authenticity based upon provenance, but I still prefer to buy this way rather than at auction, and so far the overall results have shown to be rewarding.

Again, thank you for your generous sharing of knowledge and experience.

@ming1449  Not sure why it did not occur to me sooner, but your remark about the catalog sent me looking, and I found copies of a book by John Ayers on the Koger collection, which I have now ordered.

Mr. Ayers curated the Koger's exhibition at the Ringling Museum, so perhaps the book holds a clue or two.  I'm going to see if some type of contact info can be found for Ayers, but it will probably require a visit to the museum.

I can't find the Sotheby's catalog for the sale you reference.  If you happen to have a link to someone who has it for sale, please share.

Thanks again.

@green107 

Hi Greeno -

My old, ex Bluett’s, friend has a copy of John Ayers Koger publication which, I understand, was published in rather limited numbers and is now very difficult to obtain ...

An interesting book demonstrating the breadth of this collection and includes some good pieces ...

John Ayers who is now in his mid/late 90’s and, unfortunately, not in the best of health and my friend have known each other for over 40 years ...

John is a true gentlemen, and a wonderful scholar ...

Stuart 

@ming1449 It occurred to me after posting that Mr. Ayers must be in his 90's. Perhaps your friend is in a better position to make an inquiry than I am, but if his health is a concern, of course do not ask.

I might stop by Ringling Museum next week to inquire further on my bowl, if time allows. I'm also working on getting a return visit to my client's home...if that works out, I'm sure a lot of my questions will be answered.