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Could someone shed some light on the use of Ming designs during the Kangxi?
Specifically, I am researching what is called the lotus bouquet motif, which is a Ming design that I am aware was revived during the Yongzheng and Qianlong. I am wondering if there are also known examples made during the Kangxi.
Sorry...I'm holding back on my photo (for now) until I speak with Christie's, but I have acquired a large bowl that is beautifully decorated on the inside with the lotus bouquet, and the most amazing carved peony flower design on the exterior in celadon, that is marked Jiajing. I'm confident the piece is 18th or older, but to my knowledge, during the Yongzheng and Qianlong, apocryphal Jiajing marks were not used.
That leaves the Kangxi period, which is well known to have used Jiajing marks, or it is a genuine Ming example which would make this piece an extraordinary find.
Below are links to a Yongzheng and early Ming example. I've seen about 20 different versions from various Ming periods, Yongzheng, and Qianlong, but no Kangxi. If anyone knows of Kangxi examples, I would appreciate if you would post photos or links. Thanks.
Hi Greeno -
As far as I’am aware this design was not reintroduced until the Yongzheng period, where unmark and YZ mark/period examples ate known in underglazed blue upon a white ground, and against a yellow ground, are known ...
Both types copy the early 15th C originals ...
Stuart
@ming1449 Thanks, Stuart!
Then, can I ask if you know if this border can be found in Jiajing period wares? I know this is hard with seeing only a part...sorry for that.
Hi Greeno -
No worries ...
Based on image, this border design is unknown from that period ...
Just returned from London viewings, so will check my database/reference library tomorrow but, based on the painting style, this seems rather far from that known/seen on authentic Jiajing wares ...
Will revert if anything matching/close to found ...
Stuart
Stuart,
I'm still waiting to hear back from Christie's, but I've come to the conclusion the bowl is likely late Kangxi / early Yongzheng, so here's the bowl. From what I can find, the border with hex design can be found in both the Kangxi and Yongzheng, but since the the bowl shows so much fine control of design, and the use of the lotus bouquet, I'm leaning towards Yongzheng. I was also able to find an example of an apocryphal jiajing mark attributed to Yongzheng in the British Museum collection, so it seems that they do exist in the Yongzheng period.
But, I've been unsuccessful coming up with anything similar, so I would appreciate your thoughts (even if they should suggest I'm way off) on the period.
Here, the first two photos show the bowl when I first bought it and took photos of it in bright full sun. You can see how brilliant the cobalt really glows, and the celadon has almost a jade like quality to it, not to mention how white the porcelain is. The green glaze thins near the base of the bowl, but comes evenly and cleanly to the foot rim (last photo).
The flower and leaf design is quite finely carved, including some leaves depicted partially folded/turned. The exterior rim has alternating horn (rhino) pattern and the around the exterior base, the design uses lappets and scrolling Greek pattern around the footrim.
The next photo is of the center round panel inside the bowl of the lotus bouquet. The detail and piling of the blue is superb. The close up shows the bubbles expected from early wood kiln firing.
The final photos are of the mark, bottom, and foot rim. You can see how thin the slip, so much so that you can see the texture of the bottom of the bowl's porcelain (the ring pattern created when formed on the potter's wheel). The foot rim is has some dark areas that I'm not sure why they've discolored.
Let me know your thoughts. Thx.
Wow! Again, wow!
Looking at your pictures of the bowl, my initial impression is that design wise it falls towards Qianlong. I guess it is the slightly jarring juxtaposition of the celadon design outside and the blue & white Ming design on the inside. Your bowl mystery sent me searching the stacks this morning for something similar. Here is what I found.
This is from the handbook of the collection in the short lived Tsui Museum of Art in Hong Kong.
@william Thank you for looking! That moon flask is a stunning example of the mix of celadon with blue and white. The mystery is that the bowl very much feels the quality of imperial work...so, why the apocryphal mark? Why Jiajing of all periods?
The lotus bouquet and carved celadon exterior seem to have more in common with other well known periods.
It did come from a very good collection, much of which had been donated to a very respectable museum years ago.
Was the bottom gilded at one point
@lotusblack Do you mean with gold? Not that I can see... I don't think so.
I guess the dark mark on the bottom is from sliding the mash potatoes back and forth. I seen gilded bottoms on imperial pieces in museums it was not gold gild more bronzy
@lotusblack I was thinking it would be a great serving bowl for Thanksgiving, too! 😉
Hi Greeno -
A most intriguing, and impressive looking, object ...
As with yourself, I can find no reference for another example that comes even remotely close in terms of overall motif combination nor that with a Jiaging mark ...
I have some concerns:-
The painting style of the ‘lotus bouquet’, seems slightly stiff/placed when compared to know YZ mark and unmarked examples:-
1:- image shows this motif on your bowl ...
2:- is a very large, D. 50.7 cm, unmarked dish, sold Lot 139, Sby’s HK 25 May 1990, attributed to YZ period ...
3:- Large dish, D. 38.5 cm, YZ six-character m/p, sold Lot 31, Bhm’s LD 10 Nov 2003 ...
The design seen on your bowl and images 2/3 are based on, and very closely follow, the Ming early 15thC Yongle/Xuande originals ...
4/5:- two dishes, both YZ m/p, first D. 35 cm, Lot 379 sold Sbys HK 01 Nov 1999, second D. 20.9, the Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing ...
Both 4/5 are more typical painting style examples of this motif during YZ, which continues into Qianlong period ...
6:- Large dish, 40cm, YZ m/p, sold Lot 74, Sby’s HK, 7 April 2011, ex Meiyintang Coll - included to show this motif on a yellow ground, which also continues into QL period ...
Note the differences in the detailing of the lotus flowers, the large leaf to the left, or the arrow head leaf, or the movement of the ribbons, especially on 2/3, when compared to that on your piece, which seems to lack the ‘flow’ seen of these ...
As mentioned I can find no reference, or have never seen, an authentic example of this ‘lotus bouquet’ motif used on a bowl, either Ming or later 17/18th C ...
The deeply carved exterior designs, covered in a Longquan type celadon glaze, also copies known late Yuan/early Ming examples but these originals are quite rare. The overlapping concentric wave motif, seen under the exterior mouth-rim on this piece, is rendered in a very different manner and rarely seen on these earlier wares ...
I can also find no trace of genuine 18thC examples which follow the early originals and displays such deeply carved designs - although this does not imply that such were not produced ...
So, certainly not Jiajing period and all the reference/catalogue entires would indicate that this ‘lotus bouquet’ motif was not reintroduced until YZ period, so not Kangxi either ...
The fact that neither of us can find anything similar is also somewhat concerning ...?!
But you have handled and, no doubt, seen this piece in differing light and know how it ‘feels’ - which is the most important thing when forming a opinion on any object ...
But my thoughts only and, as mentioned previously, these later wares are really not my area, so I will defer to others. Perhaps if Giovanni@clayandbrush sees this thread he may wish to comment
I would be most interested to Christie’s response, as/when received ...
Stuart
Hi Green, William, Cory and all -
Thank you, William and Cory, for posting the image/links of the two Qianlong m/p moon flask for comparison ...
These are a known but fairly rare type combining underlazed blue motifs to the neck, sides and lower base with moulded designs under a pale, celadon like glaze to the main body ...
The style/design on this bowls exterior is very different, which is, probably, peony flowers carved in differing positions. This design closely copies that first seen on Yuan blue/white wares and continues, with slight variations in to Hongwu, seen on both underglazed blue and red, and into the Yongle/Xuande periods ...
Variations of this design are also seen on Longquan wares, the closest been on early Ming pieces, attached images for comparison:-
1:- Exterior of this bowl ...
2:- Very large, rare basin or jardiniere, D. 61 cm, sold Lot 117, Christie’s LD 12 May 1986. Attributed to 14/15 century in catalogue, recent excavations at the Imperial kiln site in 2013/14 unearthed identical shaped/sized pieces from stratum attributed to early Zhengtong period, decorated with various underglazed blue design. Such pieces are now attributed to late Xuande/Zhengtong periods
3:- Massive vase, H. 74 cm, sold Lot 305, Sby’s HK 1 Nov 1999, with alternating design of upward/downward facing peonies
4:- Large meiping vase, H. 46.5 cm, Palace Museum Beijing, with carved peonies to shoulder/upper body, lower body with double chrysanthemums ...
So the carved exterior design is a variant of that seen on Yuan/early Ming wares, the central interior ‘lotus bouquet’ copies that seen on Yongzheng period pieces - itself a reintroduced of an earlier 15thC Ming motif, and the base has a Jiajing six character mark, itself copied from the mid 17/early 18thC ...
It’s an intriguing combination, and interpretation of, various styles/motifs from differing periods ...
Stuart
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