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Hi Jeremy -
My understanding is these Imperial marks could be written in underglaze blue, which was fired together with the body at high temperature, or they could be done in overglaze blue, red or gilt and then fired a second time, usually at a lower temperature. For monochromes, the marks were mostly moulded or incised ..
Stuart
Hi Steve -
The Qing Imperial kilns used a wide rang of differing handles, some of which look back to previous dynasties ie: Ming, and others that were newly designed, predominantly from the Yongzheng period onwards ...
Attached images of three Yongzheng m/p examples, all from the Palace Museum, Gugong Beijing ...
Stuart
Thank you Stuart.
I have seen the overglazed blue and red reign marks that were used on ducai decorated cups and bowls, but I would have thought that a large vase with a significant amount of underglaze blue decoration would most likely have an underglaze blue mark and as you point out this would be fired with the body, not on the glaze and reglazed again.
Kind regards,
Jeremy
@nycat @ imperialfinegems
Hi Ang and Mark -
Yes, the fact that these rejected, misfired or lesser quality Qing Imperial wares were not destroyed but stored at Jingdezhen has only come to light through the study of historical sources, such as the ‘Zaobanchu’ archives, the Shilu (veritable records or the Qijuzhu (Court Diaries) in the last 15 years ...
So a very different practice then during the Ming dynasty, when such defeated/rejected Imperial wares were destroyed/buried as they were forbidden to leave the Imperial kiln site ...
The Zaobanchu cited above is by far the most detailed and important references, as it was set up in early early years of Kangxi, and contains a wealth of information pertaining to every aspect of life at the Imperial Qing Court ...
Stuart
Hi Jeremy and all -
That this flask does not carry an underglaze blue mark is not unusual, as I have seen both blue and red six-character QL seal marks on such pieces. The fact that this piece is ‘unfinished’, would indicate the mark would have been applied after the additional enamelling was completed ...
As an aside, the overall composition indicates the two dragons represents the Emperor, with five claws, and the designated Crown Prince, also five clawed, raising up from the waves to meet his father ...
This composition was very popular during YZ/QL periods, attached images of a large vase, H. 52 cm, red six-character QL seal mark/period, the large dragon in light iron-red, the smaller one in pink yet both with near identical scales and similar features ...
A stunningly beautiful piece, the clouds and subsidiary decoration painted in the famille rose palette, private HK collection ...
Stuart
Stuart
Am I mistaken in thinking the bat looks rather out of proportion and as if it were hastily drawn in? Mind you I have not seen verified genuine ones to compare it to.
Superb discussion! I learned a lot. I'm still skeptical that this piece is genuine - sorry. It's not the artistry specifically, although I think the general line work seems thick.
Those handles sure look odd. What are they? In-turned ruyi scepters? That's not how I've seen ruyi scepter handles....always out turned and upside down.
The firing crack on this vase is soooo large and unprofessional , that I hardly think that kind of mistake is even possible to occur at an Imperial kiln.
@greeno107 @opa127 @imperialfinegems
Hi Greeno, Paula, Mark and all -
Whilst looking for something completely different I come across this flask, attached image/description, from the Palace Museum, Gugong, Beijing ...
It was included in ‘China, The Three Emperors 1662-1795’, held at the Royal Academy, London, Nov 2005 - April 2006, which I visited four times ...
The handles are rather more elaborate, but the overall painting style and composition are nearly identical to the unfinished flask posted ...
Stuart
Hello Stuart
You are indeed a fountain of knowledge in regards to Qing ceramics. Even with my limited understanding of these wares I can see the beauty of the the vase that you have posted. What I cannot understand is the huge difference in the bats shown on the two different vases, even taking into account that one is supposed to be just an outline.
The bats on the doucai vase look to me like they have been painted with superb skill, whereas, the unfinished vase looks like the outlines of the bats are made up of joined up lines almost like they have been traced or have been drawn with french curves. Perhaps I am incorrect, I just don't have enough knowledge.
Kind regards,
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy -
You are far to kind, Qing wares are not really so my knowledge, as such, is limited and vary far from any ‘fountain’!! ...
You are correct, there are significant differences between the drawing/details between of the bats on this flask and the unfinished one original posted ...
However, if you compare the bats on the blue/yellow flask, also from the Gugong, that I posted on this thread, 29/03/21 page 2, with those on the RA exhibition above, you will see that the drawing is very similar on both pieces ...
These differences may be down to different artistic interpretations of the same Court approved design, or just how different artists, perhaps several decades apart, depicted this motif?! ...
But my thoughts only - I would be most interested to hear others view on this ...
Stuart
Hello Stuart
I understand what you mean about them being similar, but to my eye they seem like chalk and cheese. The bats on the vase that you have shown are not just clearly varied in posture, but even to a novice there seems to be a significant difference in the quality. As you say, it will be interesting to read the opinions of other members.
Kind regards,
Jeremy
Dear Jeremy,
I do not see that difference in quality between the bats. They are differently represented, but the quality is there. Especially if you take the bats of the last picture that you have shown, they are almost identical to me, it is just lack of shading.
Dear Stuart, thank you for reporting of that recording related to the discarded pieces.
In fact, one thing is if the object is already bearing the Imperial mark, another thing is if it has not been marked yet. There are no reasons for destroying it in the latter case.
Talking about these, I am showing here my baluster vase, with overall decorated with incised swastika decoration, that has been left blank probably because of a firing fault at the mouth. I like it very much; it is for sure of the Daoguang period.
It took years for finding out how it was meant to be. A Chinese friend of mine found an identical one, bearing a Qianlong mark in red. The panels were decorated with scenes in polychrome enamels, without blue outlines. All the ribs of the swastikas pattern were gold gilded. The quality was very high, Imperial quality I would say, and in fact my friend was convinced that it was an Imperial Qianlong vase, but it is Daoguang. He didn’t not allow me to take pictures because he was going to sell it. I do not know where is that vase now, probably in China.
I have also found a similarly decorated vase sold by Christie’s, but with different shape. Here are its pictures. You can see by it as it was meant to look my blank vase.
Regards,
Giovanni
PS: I transformed my vase into lamp.
@jeremy I think the quality is comparable. If it had been shaded and completed I don't think any of us would be doubting it.
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