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Dear all,
First of all, is is nice to have a forum like this. I hope it will be active and that it will give all of us an opportunity to learn.
I want to ask you a question. i am a Chinese porcelain collector and my main interest is being a sherlock holmes and finding out which period it was made, why it was made, how it was used and above all if it is authentic. To fund my hobby I sometimes sell things. I am an honest seller meaning that if I doubt the age of the item I will not mention it or mention that I think it has been made recently, if I am sure of the age I will mention it. I sell locally and I sell occasionally on ebay. And what I see there worries me. My authentic items reach low prices in general, exceptional items disregarded ( which i don't have to many of unfortunately). Things I think are made in the last century ( often marked) reach relatively high prices, even when I mention that it is of the 20th century despite the fact it has Yongzheng mark. And that makes me worry. i am thinking that the current young chinese people. who only see fakes, think they are real. They want marked items even when these are rarer than unmarked and they want them in perfect condition. They do not want to buy a Kangxi charger when it has a hairline, but they believe they have bought an authentic Kangxi charger with glossy glaze and in perfect condition for 1000USD. What does this lead to? Will the future market be dominated by fakes and real collectors need to buy items only at the major auction houses? I am worried that the market for collecting chinese pieces of art is being ruined, as the number of fakes is just getting too high and is becoming some sort of standard. What do you think ( By the way a reason for me to stop all of this...not yet there but I am thinking of it)
Thanks
Staartmees
Great post - really!
First, the "Chinese market" has been around for a long time. I think it was in 1907 that a Rockefeller bought a famille noire vase for $19000 - a price that would still be regarded as high today for such a ware.
The market changes with knowledge and expertise. There was a lot of talk about a downturn after 2011, and yes the market did take a dip, but a lot of that had to do with available credit and an increasing knowledge-base among collectors. Collectors had to learn to become more savvy with their spending. They learned that the frenzy of 2011 led to a lot of bad purchases.
Sales have changed also. Great pieces have flooded the market thanks to record news, auctions have ballooned in size, and collectors want fresh examples that haven't been offered in recent years. And surely, many dealers in Asia have gone out of business trying to perfect their business. It is, in my opinion, the high-level auction business with its prices that drives the lower-level market to a large degree.
There is still a lot of money tied up in pieces purchased in the last decade and there are still a lot of pieces in baby-boomer collections waiting to hit the market. So, no, I dont think the market is collapsing anytime soon. They talked about this with the impressionist market after the Japanese got involved in the 90s. And then there was the auction scandal that alienated the Japanese... but the impressionist market is still up. Markets evolve. Auctions focus on different things, or laws change, etc. Like huanghuali now needs a permit for import into China. It doesn't mean that it's less desirable, or going to get cheaper.
People also like to feel like they have found something. I recently sold a piece labeled as "replica" in the title and it went for way more than it should have. It defies logic, but it's that kind of business. Another dealer once told me that everyone in this business makes money except for the last guy stuck holding the piece. Some of that may be true, but it speaks more to the thought process and motivation behind a lot of peoples purchasing.
What many people dont realize if they dont go to the major exhibitions in NY is that the pieces are not perfect. The pictures look good, but the real condition usually involves a restuck chip, or hairline, or reattached foot on many pieces. I'm not sure why so many focus on avoiding damaged pieces - for sure, many opportunities are missed here. Ellsworth's multi-million dollar chair set for example - all were 100% refinished to like-new condition. Some people dont realize that and then believe that good late Ming furniture should look pristine.
My opinion, and it's what I plan on doing until I die, keep on doing it for as long as you love it. I dont see an end in sight. That said, never stop educating yourself. If something sells high, ask why - and vice versa. Know the market. Also, get provenance - it's going to become the entry-fee into most major sales in the next decade.
It is what it is!
Hi,
The Chinese art market went through a period of crazy increases in prices from 1990 to 2012 and then it began levelling off. Since then prices have remained fine, with some things falling slightly out of favor over others since then. That's totally normal. Things that were incredibly popular back 80 years ago are dregs on the market today.
The Chinese art and antique market is massive when you think about all the categories of things that fall under that umbrella. Calligraphy and paintings with all their various styles, scholar's objects, ritual objects, furniture, personal accoutrements, works in metals from gold to copper, glass, bronzes, porcelain, textiles, carvings in stone, wood, coral, rock crystal, jade, numerous hardstones, bamboo, furniture and on and on. Then onto other cultures in Asia with their own subsets of all of the above..Korea, Japan, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam and on and on. Remember that part of the world has a population of around 2.8 Billion people, with many of them heading into a growing middle class.
Fakes will always be with us and have always been. The Chinese, in particular, have made fakes to deceive for centuries. I lost track decades ago of how many people I had to tell that "Imperial Qianlong vase, was made in the 1890's or 1930's", the market got flooded with them even back then. SO fear not!!
Best, Peter
Peter
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Topics and categories on The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.
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