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Just a general question to everyone :
Are they many fakes on Catawiki ?
Thanks
There are some trustworthy sellers from Europe like Brian Page or Edmund Grundner or one in Sweden whose name I have forgotten. As for US sellers I don’t know, never bought from one.
Birgit
Dear Siseno,
If the meaning of your question is: can I buy safely at Catawiki because the items on sale are validated by their experts?
If that is what you mean, the answer is a firm NO!
They do a lot of mistakes, to be gentle with them. In many cases, I am convinced that those are not mistakes but something much worst. Look for example at the many “Tang” figures, almost all “authenticated” by a German lab. A shame!!
Giovanni
Sorry Siseno,
I must have been a bit confused, I was talking about Trocadero not Catawiki. So just forget what I said.
Giovanni is right about Catawiki, they are not safe to buy. Recently they offered two Hongxian bowls that were clearly dated 1924. I never got an answer to my mail to them. The offer expired as the reserve was not met. Two weeks later the „Hongxian“ bowls were for sale again with the same description, this time a little cheaper. Buy at your own risk on Catawiki.
Birgit
I almost never look at Catawiki but by coincidence I just noticed this Tang dynasty limestone lokopala head was sold there for only $850. https://www.catawiki.com/l/14515401-chinese-limestone-head-of-a-lokapala-from-the-tang-dynasty-21-cm That price seems like a true bargain if you compare with the price a similar head went for at Christie's. https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-small-grey-limestone-head-of-a-5112516-details.aspx Now I wonder if that would indicate that the head at Catawiki is actually fake?
yes Giovanni that was my question and you and Brigit have replied to it right on point 🙂 Thanks
My long, very polite take on this "chic" platform is below - but the short answer I will supply first:
(@siseno, sorry to post this on a short question of straightforward intention; this paragraph following answers my view for you - but also highlights some things I feel me and the other members of this forum and the community are noticing in general that may be worth having a discussion on; feel free to disregard after the following few sentences!)
Yes there are fakes on Catawiki - as with any place selling a wide array of consumer grade art, especially Asian Art, there is bound to be..
This being both recent reproductions from dubious and unvetted sellers, and later reproductions attributed as mark and period examples but perhaps missed by a team of overworked staff members (this entire writeup assumes the best of the site and its intentions; which I do honestly believe are noble even if sometimes "misguided" [for the fine arts world, at least].. to be kind about it).
Is it generally safer than hopping onto LiveAuctioneers and blind searching "Kangxi Porcelain" and clicking any random house's offerings and bidding on a random lot without researching the house or referencing this site's report card feature, then hoping for the best?
I would usually say so actually; but this is why it was created - and should be held accountable if presenting itself as such with the same standard its end-goal would be.
My subjective opinion and experience with the platform:
I have sold on Catawiki maybe a handful of times, and purchased a few more - and while I think it is very ambitious and refreshing as a concept, that also is part of the problem. They are too ambitious currently.
Keep in mind they are trying to compete with eBay not just with Asian antiques, but also as an entire platform + offering even more, and frankly are getting a little too ahead of themselves - recently trying to akin themselves to something of a top shoppe with the best of the best.
This largely is due to how they were bought out by a known tech entrepreneur sometime in the past few years from my understanding; and I feel it has many parallels to Silicon Valley type tech "startups" in the sense that it is a good concept but lacks structure and advertised functionality under the surface.
Great for investing in if you don't know much below the surface, which is what I suspect is still the stage for it (growing pains).
In my experience it generally is okay for some things (Asian antiques speaking) like certain Qing export porcelains that were common in the European market, some Woodblock prints, ect. But not perfect, to put it politically correct..
Just in the way a Honda salesman should not be expected to know about the mechanics of a Ferrari because it too happens to be a car, I feel there-in lies the problem with their model for peace of mind; they have 1 designated lead "expert" for Chinese antiques, and 1 for Japanese.
But they tout their platform as "expert curated" like it's Sotheby's or Bonhams online.
This is not to discredit their experts as I will certainly attest to their merit in some areas, but that's the issue - some areas; and any expert worth their professional weight (be it a specialist or generalist) will be the first to admit nobody knows close to everything, even within their field of focus.
Catawiki makes it seem like they are fine across the board with one broad stroke - which is not the case sadly.
I don't think this falls on the experts singularly; as nobody could at all be realistically expected to cover by themselves the depth of offerings Catawiki prides itself in listing to attract a wide audience - again, growing pains and scalability issues which allows for "small discrepancies" at best..
If anything.. I think it's unfair to the experts as they likely encounter the majority of blame for any misdating or authenticity issues (going by the off-site reviews I've seen), all since it's their face plastered on the section; not the shareholders or company heads pressing for more growth and more "exceedingly rare" pieces.
The takeaway with these issues, and what else has been mentioned by others/noticed:
As @clayandbrush points out, it seems there is very little accountability for whatever claims they allow forward in some cases; and this is what could be interpreted as a problem, especially to new buyers: lulled into a "not always guaranteed" (generously said) sense of security.
He mentioned Tang lions and "lab tests" that are skeptical (again, being kind) at best - and myself have seen their Japanese section green-light things such as "Edo Period" Satsuma that is-post 20th century Meiji at best, with "certificates of authenticity" from alleged professional galleries or dealers in Europe cited; when the maker of said piece would not have been producing at that point - or in one case I noted: even alive yet.
The "gallery/dealer" mentioned on the paperwork did not exist when referenced both by me and a friend of mine who is a collector in that country in question either; and a well regarded one at that with valid experience.
We could, assuming the best, maybe say perhaps it was bought during the Japanese boom in the late 90s - and the gallery went out of business with the market crashing? Again, assuming the best case scenario full benefit of the doubt.
This also happened with several Republic Chinese examples; usually either dumped into their "curio" section (essentially just a "maybe 20th century somewhere" section) - or the higher quality appearing ones (aka the ones that are desirable to collectors and faked en-mass flowing out of Jingdezhen onto eBay by the literal boatload) silently placed into their antique section hoping for the best [the most profit].
I use Republic pieces as an example due to the sheer amount of money being invested into them from mainland Chinese buyers due to the rarity of some and the regarded quality; and Catawiki clearly knows this as they are a rather successfully growing business - but there are literal experts at the big houses dedicated just to pieces and artworks produced by certain kilns/artists during 1912-1949.
Certain things are understandable - as (and I just use this as an example from experience) Japanese wooblock alone can be so intricate from original/reprints/dating/attribution, that usually when given to larger houses - they have a whole team of specialists dedicated to authenticating/establishing provenance, ect.
You'll notice even the ID Assistant feature on this site here does not allow woodblocks or silks to be submitted due to photography alone being insufficient for authentication.
If somebody like Peter, (a regarded dealer [also a passionate collector who is astutely scholarly in his reasoning due to a genuine love for this art, which is worth noting with the context as its not just another paycheck when you're also a collector; it's a labour of love] who has dealt with the top houses and regionally regarded specialists, eBay since the very early days, seen the flood gates of fakes coming into the market and the rise of Chinese/crash of Japanese, all with a real life professional reputation and livelihood at stake should he mess up) is amongst the many experienced industry professionals to always be clear that there's mistakes made sometimes and certain things cannot be guaranteed from just photos:
Why would anybody reasonably or realistically expect a newer platform like Catawiki, (with less than a handful of rather young folks [no offense to them either - as I said; they have a lot of strengths that are impressive given what they have to work with], marketed by the platform itself as bonafide experts, handling an entire site section of the largest antique art market in the world with numerous subsections in itself with their own caveats and quirks), claiming to be a shining beacon of commitment to quality and prestige & exclusiveness to be guaranteed different than its predecessors?
Realistically? They couldn't.
Not at this point at least.
Let me ask you this instead..
Would you consign your best pieces to a platform that relies on the purchaser to mark it as delivered after receiving it, up to their complete mercy and the "good faith" of yourself placed on a random bidder across the world if successful, to then pay you out over a week after?
Catawiki is not for buyers or sellers currently; it's for investors.
and it's rather obvious when you get below just a scratch and reach the numerous flaws and hurdles under the pseudo-iGeneric Website looking surface level.
A good platform to take eBay's place as eBay dies a slow and embarrassing death, clinging to what it once was as the only show in town?
Time will tell. Maybe, maybe not.
That's the problems with startups - you never really know.. That's what they are: a startup.
Yet, it could be the next Facebook of auction houses/interfaces in 5-10 years and I could be absolutely wrong by a huge margin; frankly I'm hoping so - because in theory it's a great idea if done right.
But if they want to practice what they preach, and back their goods with the books; they should take a scaled and measured, reasonable approach to it: if they play their cards right, they have a wide open market ahead of them, and I hope they can succeed at it.
But en-parting I'll say this:
If it's as unsinkable as the Titanic said it was: why do none of the big houses (nor regional) use it as an interface?
Even Christies will host sales on Invaluable and previews on LiveAuctioneers - both platforms with their own known problems.
Sotheby's is now debuting its online platform; and has been working and developing it since the early 2000s with some of the best and sharpest minds in the world for R&D both technologically speaking and for the art market as a whole.
Why do the few regarded dealers who do sell on Catawiki sell only their mid-grade/B-stock, and infrequently - usually during off-season?
Because that's what it's for.
Direct to consumer, and sub-auction house consignment grade (generally speaking).
Expect it to be such; and have the problems related as such.
If viewed realistically as the above - it's about on par if not maybe slightly better than its competitors; but it's hard to place it amongst "competitors" because it's reaching for too many avenues at once.
Is it even a true auction site for most of their better & more "premium" lots?
For the 90% of their passable lots featured with inflated high reserves, (devoid of the auction spirit), often some above retail listings; and impossibly long (pre-virus) delays for shipment and not even an email/phone number to contact them if there's an issue?
No thanks.
Sotheby's Home offers a nice voice on the telephone, flexible terms and accepts offers on most things - a lot priced at or below fair market value already.
...oh and a reputable name that instantly backs its quality: one that will travel to the ends of the earth to make anything right if there's ever a rare issue at all.
^^Just some thoughts.
Hope all are well - some great sales at the big houses to watch these coming days
Best,
-JRN
Thank you JRN for your detailed explanation, I get your points and I agree with them.
I lost 75% of my savings funds to an online trading scam. I felt so foolish I trusted the wrong investment company. The help arrived in the form of a professional legal team. A friend who has the same similar problem told me that I have a good case and a very high chance of getting my money back from the scammers, she told me to contact wiki support so I decided to try so i contacted them via email, wikihelpdesks@ gmail. com
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