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Hi,
Could anyone verify that the size and variety of the bubbles visible under a lens can give a clue to the date of a piece of Chinese porcelain? Here are two close ups of the rim of a bowl which has bubbles of several sizes.
Thank you,
Carl
Sorry Carl, I don’t know about bubbles, but the rim decoration you show looks rather awkwardly painted, which seems to speak for a more recent item. Maybe you could show the whole piece?
Birgit
Dear Carl,
if you wish to study Chinese ceramics, forget about bubbles. They means nothing, despite books have been written about them. It is a false path, not reliable.
If you handle similar pieces of the same period, you can find different bubbles. I have recently shown here, in another thread, bubbles from a modern replica having the features that supposedly only original pieces should have.
Giovanni
Hi there,
Thanks for the tips, much appreciated. This does seem to be a fairly recent bowl but as I'm struggling to pin down the style of decoration I wondered if examining the surface would help! Attached are two more details of the flower motifs, also under a thick glaze.
Cheers, Carl
Hi - I think the bubble examining is fascinating, I looked at an old piece and the bubble size changed around the cobalt, bubbles might be gases caught in the glaze so different pigments, chemicals and such would change the gas caught in the glaze, there is some work going on right now with bubbles of porcelain and I believe one day will make all the difference because you can`t fake pigments that do not exist anymore
richard severson
Dear Carl, could you show the foot rim and the bowl as a whole?
Birgit
How many things I am ignoring.
I was convinced that the periodic table of elements was the same since the beginning of our Planet and will continue the same until the end.
Instead now, I am learning that in an extremely short time, a few centuries only, some pigments appeared and disappeared, without the possibility of having them again. How interesting!
Dear Carl, seriously speaking now, I can say that at my beginning I did the same. In my first post on Gotheborg I included pictures of bubbles, which were exactly following the rules of the bubbles theory. Small and big bubbles, scattered in random way. A textbook example of the theory. Pity that the bowl from which the pictures were taken was a brand new bowl, bought at the shop of a museum as reproduction of the originals.
If it were so simple, I mean if it were possible dating a piece by a technical inspection, there were no reason for having experts.
If you are interested in dating your bowl, the best thing is to post pictures of the whole bowl, as requested by Shinigami.
Giovanni
Hello again,
Thanks for your insights, most illuminating.
Please find attached photos of the whole bowl as suggested. It measures 20cm diameter by 8cm high. It's relatively thickly potted, the glaze has a greenish tint particularly evident on the glazed footrim. The cobalt blue is bright and washy with brownish areas. Condition is pristine apart from light scratching and a crease on the rim plus a tiny hairline. There are five motifs, equally spaced.
The foot has an obvious stilt/ring mark, the whiteness of the foot suggests a very recent date, not an obvious 'fake' of anything in particular (that I've been able to find anyway) as the decoration recalls Chenghua but the shape is a mystery to me.
Any ideas gratefully received!
Best wishes, Carl
Dear Carl,
it is imitating nothing to me, it is a modern bowl but not trying to copy a specific type of ware. Just decorated in blue and meant for use, I think.
Giovanni
Hi Giovanni,
Thanks for that - this bowl has always struck me as modern. However, as I am trying to learn I couldn't dismiss the curious ring mark with some kiln grit, a slight red oxide deposit and of course, the bubbles! It's also pretty wonky and I see from other posts that the lack of surface wear doesn't always indicate recent manufacture. The decoration is very close to some Ming bowls I've spotted but the shape certainly is not. For an item of tableware this is a pretty useless size so I must assume it was intended to deceive.
I have learned a lot from trying to assess this little bowl, thanks for all your help.
Best wishes, Carl
Dear Carl,
as said I do not know what it is, to me it is not old because that exact shape does not exist on antique Chinese porcelain ware. It has been fired on a metal ring, a technique mostly seen on qingbai and celadon ware, because of the glazed foot. But that foot, so tall and large, is excluding an old attribution like Ming for example.
The decoration too is not a standard one.
Giovanni
Dear Carl,
as I noted earlier the painting on your bowl looks a little bit awkward. In the old times one man would paint nothing but rim scrolls. Another would paint only the flower inside. Dozens a day, day after day. That’s why old pieces look so accomplished.
Birgit
Hello again,
Many thanks once again for your observations, I can see that the decoration is lacking in grace and rather stodgy with a thick outline. Each flower motif and section of the rim border is an exact replica, almost like a transfer but definitely hand painted with some dexterity (but little finesse).
Have you come across any contemporary or recent examples of Chinese porcelain where a metal ring was used in the kiln in order to enable a glazed foot?
Cheers, Carl
Dear Carl,
I have never seen that I think.
I found it strange indeed.
Giovanni
Dear Carl
I agree with Giovanni. Some people say you can see brownish dead bubbles in old porcelains but that does not make sense. The brownish dead bubbles can now be faked in Jingdezheng if some kinds of chemical material are added when the wares are burnt. So if you rely solely on that standard, you will be in danger. Also, it is not unusual that genuine old porcelains contain no brownish dead bubbles at all. The brownish dead bubbles look like following:
Also, about 20 years ago, Jingdezheng started to abandon wood Kiln and embrace gas kiln for enviroment protection purposes. So another theory came up that you can identify wood kiln wares (old and ancient) and gas kiln wares (modern) by looking at bubbles. Wood kiln wares have different sized bubbles because the temperture was hard to keep constant, while gas kiln wares have identical sized bubbles because temperture can be digitally controlled at a constant level. That is false too, because people in Jingdezheng started to manually adjust temperature in order to get different sized bubbles.
In conclusion, bubbles theories do not help much in identifying old or modern porcelains.
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