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Hello all,
I recently acquired an incredible grouping of vases from an ex-dealer's estate collection, and one of the vases was this unusual ge type vase. One side of the vase has overglaze painted flowers, that do not look Chinese in style to me, so I'm wondering if this vase would be considered an English "clobbered" vase? I've had a piece or two of clobberware, but never something as nice as this... and I can't seem to fine ONE clobbered ge-type vase online! So did they even clobber them? I guess it's whatever they felt like clobbering right? If this vase was not painted over, it would be 10x better in my opinion, but some people may like it more.
I am certain this vase is antique and not some newer copy... when I got it, it was covered in dust and dirt, and almost yellow in color, especially near the mouth, so I took a cloth with some hot water and just wiped it down, and wow what a difference... At the same time, I wish I took some pictures before I cleaned it, because the smaller crackles in between the black cracks were a beautiful golden color from the dirt and dust getting in there (which is what you like to see on a ge vase), but it easily washed away. The foot rim looks nice, with knife marks, and the glaze stops pretty nicely...does anyone have good experience with these ge-type vases? My guess is that its from the 19th century at least, but could it possibly be earlier? Especially if the flower design is an English clobbered design and they received it via export back in the late 18th or early 19th century?
Basically my questions are, is this vase considered "clobbered?" Have you seen any similar flower decorations like this? There's no chance it's a Chinese painting right? And lastly, what is your opinion on the age of the vase itself?
Thank you all!
Eric
Thanks for the reply, I do appreciate it. I believe it is much earlier than that, actually I'm pretty certain, but I'd love to hear others thoughts as well.
The base looks Japanese. Did Chinese have this type of flat base?
It may be, Brian, I really don't know, but the colours of the flowers seem to stir my memory but I am not sure why, could be something Japanese.
How much older do you think it is, Eric. Do you have some information from where you got it?
The base was one reason I thought it was post 1950. I also haven't really seen anything like that base on older Chinese pieces, which often have thinner dark coloured foot rims, however I did find this flat one, but as you can see it is very different.
I agree with Julia. It can't be clobbered, and was deliberately painted to appear this way. The green, red, and blue are all underglazes. Clobbered decorations are all done in overglaze enamels in Europe because the glaze and underglaze decorations were already applied in China. This means that the blue, green, and red colors were painted directly onto the bisque ware, then a glaze is applied and fired together in a kiln.
I think this is a studio piece.
Thank you guys very much for your thoughts, they have been incredibly helpful! I mistakenly assumed the painting was overglazed, because the unusual colors and style just look like it would be overglazed, but upon closer look you are correct John it is underglazed, so I agree that would rule out it being clobbered in England! I stupidly should have looked closer instead of assuming!
I got it at a local small auction, who cleaned the estate of a collector/dealer, and in his collection I was able to purchase many antique Chinese pieces, but this vase came on a different tray lot with other non-Chinese antique vases such as Rookwood, Owens, an art deco Stangl, Saturday Evening Girls, etc.. I'm guessing they just arranged the tray lot to have early vases, but there's no real correlation there. I agree Julia that the base does not look like typical Chinese foot rims, but I did find some (not many that's for sure) that were somewhat close at least, so it definitely had me wonder.
Some reasons I believe it to be old are; There's some black bubble imperfections under the glaze, the secondary crackles have a nice golden color in person actually but its harder to see in the pictures, the inside of the vase is incredibly dirty with plenty of built up grime over time, and the initial amount of dirt and dust built up on it before wiping it down was very consistent with old vases I've had, then there's a nice thickness to the glaze that stops near the foot, and the color of the paste definitely appears to have age but I guess that all depends on where it was made.
All that being said, I now believe, and agree with all three of you, John, Brian, and Julia, that this vase is either an interesting studio pottery piece, or a Japanese piece, and I believe it dates to the 1920's or 30's, maybe earlier.
Thank you guys again for the help, I'm glad I posted!
Regards,
Eric
Glad to help, Eric! I can see why you posted it though. I find it very attractive. It seems like a fun modern twist on Chinese ceramics. I say I believe it is a studio piece because I think I'm familiar with the underglaze and glaze used. The underglazes are very much the same colors and consistency as the Amaco underglazes I use, and the glaze seems to be some sort of Raku crackle glaze, which can have black spots/imperfections. Ex: https://shop.clay-planet.com/r-1-clear-crackle-raku-glaze.aspx
It is just my opinion of course, as you are the best judge since you have it in front of you. I like it very much.
I am also an advocate against using bright-line rules on determining if something is old. Black imperfections, large bubbles, iron oxide lines, and glaze control can all be pre-determined before a piece goes into a kiln by adjusting the composition of the glaze. These were all made within the last couple of months and in an electric kiln.
Hello John,
Thanks again for all the help! I'm grateful to hear from a potter with experience using different glazes. The raku glaze you posted looks very similar, so I would have to agree that it is likely a studio piece. Too bad it's not Chinese, but it's still an interesting and beautiful vase that is well made!
I agree that using the color of the crackles is not a great way to determine the age, I just figured when I added everything together it made more sense, but I'm definitely thinking twice now about the age. Interesting about the black spots, I definitely learned something there so thanks for sharing, as I just assumed it was from the impurities in the glaze or from the wood firing. I did look at the glaze with a high powered loupe, and there was a fine bubble pattern, which I've always associated with antique wood fired pieces, but I can't remember the actual science behind that or if it's reliable (probably not). Do you know anything about that John? Thanks again for all the help, I truly appreciate it, and I'm very happy to have learned something.
-Eric
Hi Eric,
I think that using bubbles as a determinant of age or firing method has been discredited. The issue with this is that the glaze composition can affect the "bubble pattern" as well, and the fact that wood kilns are still used today. I will ask the glaze expert in my studio about this, but he's helped me learn a lot about making glazes and adjusting for certain desired effects. The sang de boeuf glaze for example in my second photo has larger bubbles than all of my Kangxi, Yongzheng, and Qianlong export pieces, and it was fired in an electric kiln.
Best practices I think with discerning age is that everything has to match known examples, especially including design and execution of that design rather than solely adding together the technical firing aspects. However, I am very much a novice with Chinese domestic wares as my area of interest is 18th- and 19th-century Chinese export porcelain.
Kind regards,
John
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