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Hi Mark,
They must not: they claim it's Qing, possibly 18th c.:
"This listing is for a wonderful Chinese export porcelain dish dating to the Qing Dynasty, possibly 18th century." it says.
Whether that's correct or not I don't know. You could be right. If new, someone took the time to add some scratches, which of course is possible.
Regards,
Steve
Things seem to sell pretty high thought we were is a global recession. Lol
Interesting. Just watched it and he mentioned another Daoguang example that sold for four times this one at a major auction house. Regardless of it being of the period or not, the main concern that I have is that the buyer has spent over $10,000 on a monochrome without having physically handled it. That is an alarmingly bad collecting practice at these price levels.
@william Yes, not something I would ever do. I don't buy monochromes or flambe vases because they seem to be the most copied kind and harder to detect. But more importantly, I don't love them.
@greeno107 Good to know.
I was wondering if there could be a range of quality & techniques from the same era with this as one might see in other wares but then again if it's marked imperial there's supposed to be a certain standard of quality. Were there non-imperial kilns that nevertheless fired marked items as contemporary "copies"?
Ah! Here is one with the colors reversed (as more typical) going to acution today and singled out by Peter:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/137119402_a-chinese-iron-red-and-underglaze-blue-dragon-dish
@steve If I understand your premise, you are asking if during the Daoguang period, if a Daoguang mark and period vase of lesser quality could have been produced by a private kiln (minyao)?
Yes, it is possible, but highly unlikely for this vase.
The form and glaze of this vase is quite special, and during the Daoguang, would still have been reserved for production at imperial kilns.
By the late 19th c., the production of porcelain was consumed by commercial trade, and the techniques and standards fell into the hands of private kilns, and generally the diminished quality was the outcome.
Let me add…
As a collector, would you be enticed to buy a sub-quality porcelain piece simply because it was mark & period? $10,000 is not cheap. Would it not be wiser to buy a repaired M&P piece of high quality? Or, perhaps buy a non M&P piece of the Daoguang period that exemplifies the quality and style of the period?
When I see sales results like this, I find myself despairing that the practice of curating a collection has met it’s demise - buyers are looking only at the opportunity to find a margin of profit in the purchase price, then flipping the piece to the next uninformed buyer as quickly as possible, with little or no regard to authenticity.
I hate it - it makes me sad in a deeply personal way because what results is a total loss of an appreciation of the artistry of authentic period pieces.
I would wager that a genuine M&P Daoguang flambé fanghu with restoration would not have achieved the result of this Ebay vase simply because the vast majority of Chinese porcelain buyers lack a fundamental understanding of artistic quality to differentiate high quality from low quality, and therefore focus primarily on condition.
I understand why Ebay sellers exploit this, but the result is not unlike a giant game if hot potato that could eventually take the whole industry down.
It is possible to destroy people’s appreciation of genuine art - it has happened before and continues in other genre today.
@greeno107 Good to know. Thank you.
And I should have written "mark and period" not "marked imperial" which, to my untrained ear, it always sounds like.
P.S. Your addendum seems to be addressed to me. Of course I wouldn't. I totally understand why you are upset. I find the topic very confusing myself, especially with the conflict of appraisals. As I noted above, I steer clear of these kinds of pieces mainly because I don't want to collect them and they are frequently faked.
Yes, it was an amazing auction! Mostly too expensive for me, but I was able to buy the Satsuma Kinkozan plate for $410, and I would love to know the thoughts of people here about the plate. I really didn’t know a whole lot about it, but found it to be exquisite. My usual monthly budget is $500 +/- for Asian Art, except for the very rare outlay of $1K - $1500 (or less, of course!) for an exception Kutani vase. Mostly I buy Rose Mandarin when it’s affordable, so RM and Kutani have become my collection. I would be most grateful for your thoughts on the plate and anything else! Here is the link to the plate:
thank you so much, Charlotte
Hi Charlotte,
Congratulations! I was drooling over that myself and I don't collect Japanese. It's a delightful, charming plate rim if ever I've seen one. I'm glad it's going to someone who will treasure it.
Regards,
Steve
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