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A rare design in Yuan or Sothern Song?

 
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 Anonymous 13097
(@Anonymous 13097)
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 273
Topic starter 09/03/2023 12:50 am  

I believe this is one of the rarest of the Yuan bowls - which are sometimes called Marco Polo ware - with raised molded lines. In this case it is a creamy grayish-white celadon glaze with a rare Phoenix bird design. The rim and foot are unglazed. The foot a

127 gg CIMG6167
127 gg CIMG6168
127 gg CIMG6157
127 gg P1040153 (2)
127 gg P1040156

Yuan type. Sometimes these grey bowls are called Southern Song. What to you think?
David Coles

This topic was modified 2 years ago by Anonymous

   
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Yuan celadon Pheonix Chinese
 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
09/03/2023 10:26 pm  

Hey David,

This looks like Fujian produced Qingbai, more creamy and less blue.... really nice design with the phoenixes.  Pretty sure this is Yuan, rather than Song.

Here is a good article on the Fujian trade ceramics.

http://www.koh-antique.com/fujianceramics/fceramics.htm

Cheers,

Jeremy


   
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 Anonymous 13097
(@Anonymous 13097)
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 273
Topic starter 09/03/2023 11:42 pm  

Jeremy,

Thanks for the link and your comments.  In the link, which is very good, the vast majority of gray ware is carved.  The molded ware and boxes were all soft white ware.  This bowl is a hard gray ware that rings like a bell.  None of that white ware can ring - it is too soft.  The Pheonix HEAD is used on jars from Tang onward, I think.  But nothing like this molded Pheonix bowl.  While in the Philippines i tried to collect all of the molded type bowls, only three of mine are gray ware with molded designs.  So, I'm somewhat confused.

127 100 gg IMG 4053
127 100 gg IMG 4055
127 100 gg2 IMG 4059

 

David Coles


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
10/03/2023 11:58 am  

@musicnus 

Hey David,

A few quick distinctions, when I said Fujian, I meant one of the 150(give or take a few) possible kilns, I don't know nearly enough to tell you which ones.  That said I expect the Dehua, Minnan, and the Putian kilns to have produced more white paste wares than the others, just simply because they were larger and better regulated.  If you say the gray rings like a bell but the white do not, it could also mean it simply reached a higher temp in the same kiln, thus changing its over all color as well.  Below is a photo of Two of my Fujian(#2,3) Qingbai pieces and one Guandong piece(#1).  Note the differences, 2 and 3 are from likely the Minan kiln and both mid 12th century but each has a different shade of glaze, one creamy and one blueish, and slightly different paste.  They were just fired differently, the small jar(#3) reached a higher temp, it rings like a bell, The ewer(#2) does ring out but is thicker and a bit more dull.  The Guandong provincial one I do Not know the kiln exactly, but it is also a Qingbai type ware, with a gray paste, but a much lower firing temp, and far less refined a paste.

Also To note is that Marco Polo ware is a rather dated name for these, and is based upon the mindset that these things were "discovered" by him, when he simply visited places that were already in full production and trade when he stopped by.  He even stated that "Zayton" or Quanzhou int he Fujian province was one of the two greatest trading centers in the world, I believe he called it the "Alexandria of the East", but don't quote me on that as a direct quote I don't recall where I read it.

These trade ceramics, especially Qingbai were already heavily traded in the Middle East ( even Africa has had earlier examples excavated), as well as SE Asia for hundreds of years before he stopped by... kind of funny what the west ends up calling things.... Believe me whenever I read one of the old books on the Japanese kilns and an author refers to a piece as a Brinkley-Type jar instead of Seto ware I laugh all the same.

I really would love to see the comp of all you Qingbai pieces, I suspect it is a very interesting archive of all the traded wares in the Philippines... sounds pretty nerdy and cool to me 🧐 🤣 . 

Cheers,

Jeremy

IMG 4901

   
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 Charlotte Ritchie
(@charlotte)
Honorable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 268
10/03/2023 3:40 pm  

Apropos to this discussion, I won this bowl from Ceramics and Collectibles last Saturday eve. I found myself mesmerized by the whitish color and the beautiful shape. I knew since it was from C&C that it was the genuine article.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134460974062?nma=true&si=3oMuFc%252BF7WcfubzvHBM%252FaxiLgkY%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
10/03/2023 5:45 pm  

@charlotte 

Beautiful.... do post it when it comes in. 

Jeremy


   
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 Charlotte Ritchie
(@charlotte)
Honorable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 268
10/03/2023 6:15 pm  

@jbeer2121 Will do Jeremy! What do you think of the sales price?


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
10/03/2023 6:17 pm  

@charlotte 

Looks good to me. 

Its a nice size too.

I just bought a nice Qingbai piece that should be here in the next day or so... I'll be posting it soon.

Jeremy


   
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 Charlotte Ritchie
(@charlotte)
Honorable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 268
10/03/2023 8:17 pm  

@jbeer2121 Looking forward to seeing that! I'd love to know where you found it. I keep my eye on Brian Page (Matthew) for Qingbai pieces; he says they're hot now, and usually sell they day they come on!

This post was modified 2 years ago by Charlotte Ritchie

   
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 Anonymous 13097
(@Anonymous 13097)
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 273
Topic starter 10/03/2023 11:47 pm  

Friends,

A poster on another site found another Phoenix bowl very much like mine.  I had looked on that site many times even recently but didn't see it:  "you find another Yuan Dehua bowl with an impressed Phoenix decoration on Mr. Koh's website."
http://www.koh-antique.com/fujianceramics/fceramics.htm

Here it is so you don't have to scroll through it.
David Coles

127 Fujian Pheonix
127 gg CIMG6167

 

This post was modified 2 years ago by Anonymous

   
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