@shinigami Hi Brigit.  Yeah.  what could make people want to scratch it first then paint over ?  Could we suspect a re-painting for an original piece ? I am still surprised about its lightness.  

Al

@superox 

Al,

I am sorry to be so blunt, and I know I was enthusiastic with your initial pictures... But I think it is a fake meant to deceive, and I believe it fooled a lot of us, in one way or another.  The way the enamels pooled in firing aren't consistent with what I'd expect for Yongzheng wares, the plate itself is good but not great, the ruby tone is wrong in my opinion.  I hope I am wrong, but as our dear friend Tim says, look at whats wrong, and it will tell you.  It is beautiful nonetheless... I would display it proudly amongst my derelict plate collection, but use it as a study piece, to see the quality of fakes coming from China.  I will say that they clearly failed on the wear side of things, the scratches under the enamel layer is just a perplexing.

I hope these fakers don't follow the threads on here, but I suppose they do and try to correct what they make, if they do in fact see this I hope the know that with our combined knowledge, we spot the failures, and as a group we are learning....

Al I most certainly love your earlier wares you have posted, and hope to learn a lot from you, but a message from a brother in arms so to speak, carefully tread into the later wares, as the fakes increase with such novelty and ingenuity, such good replication of these esteemed wares, that I mst do a double take or triple or what have you, before I feel comfortable buying. 

Some things I have noticed on lesser wares, the foot will be okay, but the white "base" glaze while be the wrong color, the enamels fall flat ( I no longer have the plate but Brian might, of horses under a willow, the enamels are a good gauge of how they fired), outside of imperial wares the mark just can't be hit, and I share in the struggle to find such pieces...... my many fakes that I have spent money on find their place on range day, they make such good targets.

Cheers, and with love and hope,

Jeremy

ummmmmm I still cant figure out why that bit in the middle is bolded, but the points still stand

-J

Sorry, Al, but I too am bothered by all that scratching. It seems strange that it is well worn, yet all the enamels are intact. Furthermore, given it is so thinly potted but would appear to have been well-used, I am surprised it doesn't have any damage.

Apparently the fine potting is usual. On Bonhams they were talking about a piece and said this, " Martin-Hurst clearly had a particular fondness for ruby-backed and other eggshell famille rose porcelains ...."  I also read the Ruby glaze was blown on, which I didn't know, I guess like powder blue? 

@superox I agree with others that the plate does not appear to be Yongzheng, or for that matter 18th c.  As Jeremey has pointed out, the paste is not correct... it is far too grey toned.  The enamels also do not seem to match with 18th c. wares.

Fake?  I'm not sure.  I'm usually pretty good at seeing an artistic flaw... John pointed out the issue with the border...perhaps that is enough, but people are very hard to render... overall, the piece looks very nice.

The points brought up about the gilt not being worn while there are clear surface scratches on the porcelain raises concerns, but I think it could have another explination... I don't know what that explination is, but I think it needs further research.  Off the top of my head, the previous owners who cleaned the plate may have focused upon cleaning the white parts and avoiding the enamel and gilt areas... that's what I do when I clean.

Can you post a very close up photo of the ruby, so we can see bubbles in the glaze?  Also, same type of photo of the robe of the woman.

Thx.

Posted by: @lotusblack

@johnshoe This is the shading level I’m talking about the Christie’s is crisp the shading flows. The plate that I believe is a copy is stiff the colors are blobbed. To much jet black. But the framing is also off. It’s just my view I could be wrong.

i think that you are right. sometimes it is difficult to know that coloration is inferior without having an authentic example for comparison. thanks for finding the christies plate. shading is one of the first things i study but even that does not help without a good reference. the faces on both plates are plausible, but when comparing the two, there is a huge difference. now those things are not infallible, so judgment has to be exercised. the border on the original is more complex with the extra ring. again it is all of the small things which add up to indict it.

on the other hand, gradients of quality should be considered. the example of the poster is not imperial and makes no such claim so its quality may not match the christies plate. i need to check if the christies example is marked.

Posted by: @superox

Hello Ladies and Gents...

I got the reply from Peter.

He said that he has handled this type of ruby back before and even had  2 few expert from a museum looked at it.  Both were torn between whether it is a genuine piece or not.

However, according to Peter, the colour of the stool and the purple robe colour looked more like republic.

His prognosis is that this could possibly be a late Qing or Early Republic ware during the revival period of this type of ware and a lot were exported to Europe.

This piece has legitimate wear.

 

Can anyway, see if this purple colour existed in Yongzheng period ?  

But now, we are at a level where even musuem experts and at a crossroad but which ever way, I am happy with it and the learning that comes from this...

 

Al

There was a period in late guangxu when renewed attention was paid to reproducing at very high quality 18th C wares - clearly the intent was not to deceive. many museums had to deaccession objects when new scholarship revealed the erstwhile objects as c. 1900. i bought such a jar billion years ago labeled by an old school dealer as kangxi but in reality late 19th/early 20th.

i commented above way too early not know that this post was 9 pages and growing. however, it is the best damned thread i have read here yet and could easily see it being made into a move 😮

Hi Tim/Jeremy/Julia.

I am totally going up and down on my emotions here but I do respect all the opinions.

Now, if I may ask..  What is the best way to take photo of the bubbles ?  I have seen some loupe with lights.

Can our team here advise (I am literally going to the deep end of things now...until we find the truth!) on what equipment do I need to purchase.

What type of bubbles do I expect to see from an original (made in Republic era). 

Irregular bubbles means kiln uses wood while a regular bubbles means the use of electric kiln ?  Is this statement valid ?

Have the kiln started using electric Kiln durng the republic era ?  Are we safe to assume that the bubbles identified will determine the final dating on this piece ?

Thanks again.

Al 

@superox in a perfect world you would use a macro lens. but you may have a camera with high magnification levels which may capture the bubbles.

Al, I would recommend getting this looked at by an expert. It has been an interesting thread and I have looked at many ruby-backed items trying to understand more about them, which has been great for me but I have no financial investment.

From what I have seen, the quality of decoration varies, sometimes within the piece, eg even the Christies one has a less than perfect border, so I don't feel quality is going to authenticate age. The colours too are not necessarily going to be conclusive - we are seeing them on different screens and mediated by your choices, equipment and surroundings - sorry that isn't meant to sound rude, that is just the way of things. Technical aspects may help, but they can be faked or their relevance disputed or simply difficult to capture.

I don't know where you live but maybe the major auctions houses have assessment days in your area, or there is a good museum or someone like Peter you could have look at it?

Irregular bubbles are a result of ash hitting the porcelain. That combined with the irregular temperature within the kiln. Imperial commissiond are excempt. As are some higher quality pieces by masters such as the 'eight friends of zushan'. 

With modern Kilns in essence the above issues are not normally present. No flying ash and the temperature is even. 

As far as I am aware electric/other modern kilns were not in use during the Republic period but may have been used right at the end of said period.

By the 1980's there were no old school kilns in operation.

The difficulty now is that there are some kilns today using the old method. Which makes things very problematic.

I haven't commented on your dish because monochromes are extremely difficult to ascertain by way of pictures. The copies today are exceptionally well done. But I have read some excellent feedback from members. 

If you wanted to study said wood kilns versus gas/electric I would suggest studying porcelain plaques rather than plates or vases.

Mark