The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.
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Hi Tim,
appreciating your posts. what do you think of the ruby back foot rim photo ?
AlÂ
@superox I took a close and long look at your new photos. It seems the photos taken of the front were in less light than the back. Maybe you can post some front photos in very bright natural light... to the point there is reflection.
Also, in reviewing this discussion, I suggested you post a very close up of the pink enamels, so we can see the bubbles. It would be most helpful if you pick an area of pink where you see white and pink enamel.
What do I think of the foot rim? Honestly, it is not significant to me with regards to authentication of your plate. Your plate, if fake, is of high quality, and I suspect they would pay close attention to the foot since that is something everyone looks at.
However, I looked at the colors and details of your plate again, and I share the belief that Brian stated much earlier in the post - the plate appears more modern than Yongzheng.
Unless the plate is dirty, or the colors are diluted from insufficient lighting, the front of the plate seems dull compared to the brilliant pink and other colors associated with the Yongzheng period. Furthermore, the white of the porcelain is not the glowing milky white as I would also expect in sunlight. Â
While I did not believe that the imperfections in the border decoration was enough to disqualify the plate, after staring at the line work on the front, and comparing to other known Yongzheng plates, I believe the lines just are too thick, too uniform, and lack a natural flow that I see in Yongzheng.
In genuine Yongzheng works, the black lines often go from thick to extremely thin. Black lines often disappear entirely to create the illusion of perspective and depth.
Although you did not include a close up of the red enamel, there is enough evidence in your photos to suggest more modern work. In known examples of non-imperial famille rose from the Yongzheng, the red not only bubbles, but often chips completely off the porcelain. The reason is that Yongzheng kilns were only recently becoming acquainted with red, and when combined with white glaze that fired at a different temperature, the result was a lot of bubbles and improper adhesion to the body of the object. Consequently....you get chips.
There is another matter.... there seems to be a rough spot just to the upper left of the woman. What is that? A firing flaw? It seems very strange for a Yongzheng piece to have a patch sized firing flaw like that.
My opinion of your plate is really quite beautiful. But, as I have said many times, we should be looking at what is wrong to authenticate, and there are some issues that need to be resolved.
@superox Here is a collage of images from the Imperial Yongzheng charger I sold last year. These photos were taken indoors which is why the base porcelain is greyish... However, look at the lines... thick, to thin, to very thin, to nothing..
Also, even in indoor light, the colors of enamel are gem like.
Â
Thanks Tim. According to Peter this plate is made more during the Late Qing and Early Republic period. I definetely dont see bubbles but see more of a water colour wash down. I would be very happy if the piece belong to a latter period as to think of this as Yongzheng for the price i paid could be a moon shot.
Another question is the changes in the clay body during this period. Historically, the imperial kiln were not very active this (late Qing and early Republic period) am I correct ?
The successor of the Imperial kiln is the "Jiangxi Ciye Gongsi" (Jiangxi Porcelain company) and they took a lot of great artist from the late Qing (source Gotheborg). Could this probably explain that descprepancies of having a good clay body, a rushed rim and a nicely executed center theme ?
GLAZE FINISH - if this is republican, would you say that the glaze ruby back finish is consistent with its period ?
What are the normal unit weight of a yongzheng plate (density) ? Are they quite thinly potted (compare to modern plates you can buy at target stores or those Ming export ware). I have not handled a Yongzheng but I can almost see it as light and porcelaneous in finish.
Â
Thanks and looking forward to your (and every one reply).
in the meantime, i would love to see some of your collection as I can appreciate the thoroughness in your decision making prior to making any aquisition.
Al
@superox It most certainly could be a late Qing to early Republic copy, and there is very little a collector can do to authenticate a genuine Republic piece from a very good fake.
Sometimes the green & blue enamels have a rainbow reflection in bright light. This effect seemed to dissapear later in the 20th c., but it might have been recreated in the 21st c.
I do think the foot looks a bit too refined for late Qing... maybe Republic, but difficult to say.
What is going on with that patch of roughness about 11 o'clock to the woman? Â
No worries Mark. Its important that I try to contribute as much as possible to the forum. This is a life long journey of not only purchasing (purchasing is the last thing to do) but learning looking at referenecs and having high level quality discussion. Â
Truth may hurt sometimes specially when one makes a bad mistake but this forum allows us to follow that education path of sharing and to weed out as much of this fake industry as much as we can.
Al
Hello Guys.
The plate has arrived safely and soundly.
First impression, it is quite lightly potted. Reminds of of my small kangxi washer. It defintely does not feel like a Kmart plate in density.
I took some photos directly on the sun to show its beautiful crimson like colour.
Looking forward for the feedback on the footrim close up photos.
thanks.
Â
AlÂ
Â
Hi Tim.
Thank you for your comment. Please find close up photos of the purple robe. I try to take a photo with high reflectance so hope it helps. I also notice a lot of scratches here.
Looking forward... 😀Â
Al
Â
Hello Julia/Sharon/Tim/Adam,
Â
Please find an interesting aspect of this plate. It is very thinly potted (not quite an egg shell) but light enough that the a light can pass through.
You notice that in the middle there are few firing flaw that almost punched a hole through the plate.
Is this a common feature of the Republican piece ?
Â
Al
Â
The scratches do worry me a bit. They look like they had been on the body prior to painting. Otherwise the gold and color would be scratched too. But maybe they just look exaggerated because of the enlargement and lighting of the pictures.Â
Birgit
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Topics and categories on The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.Â
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A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.Â
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