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This plate has been in a lot of discussions I personally don’t think it’s 20th century and I believe this is from the Imperial kiln. This is just an opinion.
Thanks for the extra photos, sorry I didn't have time to do much more than acknowledge you'd tagged me in a post.Â
I wouldn't worry about the border, this is more of a saucer than a plate and I have found a similar one on the British Museum website, which I will link below. I don't know if it is ruby back as that is the only photo.
As for the Christie's example John posted, those flowers Brian circled also lack shading. There are differences too, between the plate I have linked too and the one under discussion eg there are fewer lines / folds on the fabric of the woman's dress, yet the other two plates are similar.
I am still thinking Yongzheng, but to be sure, I would want to look at the additional pictures on a big screen later. I don't think it is Republic, I doubt it would have been made for use (ie there would likely be more around if a set) and as a piece of art it would probably have been bigger and marked.Â
Obviously, those are just my current thoughts. You may be advised to ask Peter, the fee is small compared to what you have paid out.
Good morning everyone,
The beauty of ladies are all gorgeous, all different if you line them up next to each other. For some reason, British Museum one is more like republic to me, Christines is Yongzheng, and this one is early 20th/ late 19th C. Most likely I am totally wrong, just want to put a discussion here and learn more from each others.Â
Regards,
Yin
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Here are some pictures from the Book of Faces together with a screenshot of Al's dish. There was a revival of that style during Guangxu but I found no fitting examples in the Republic chapters.
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Birgit
Please forget the 1735 lady, she came in by mistake. I wanted to show the 1730 lady below with a similar clothing style to the one on Al's dish.
Birgit
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Hi Brigit,
these faces of ladies are a study on itself.... Thanks... (it does look like 1730)...where do you get this book... it is just fascinating!Â
One of the other thing that I wonder is the back... the paste does look quite clean... any comment on the footrim ? Also, did you notice the feather duster colour ? its like in pure black! that kinda made me feel...like something could be off.. but the drawing of the lady and the boy is nice.. plus to imagine this plate is only 16.4 cm ..
Thanks
AlexÂ
Hi Alex,
in my opinion the lady looks credible but there are different opinions here and I'm far from being an expert for Yongzheng. You might want to as Peter Combs for his opinion, the $12 are really worth it. This is the book of faces:
Birgit
I can see what you mean Yin, about the Museum plate looking Republic but it can't be as I have just read that it was donated by a Curator of the BM who died in 1897.
There is a zoomable image here - at least it confirms that a thin border was found on either late 19th or period saucers. As I said in the earlier post I still think this could well be Yongzheng.
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/A_Franks-443
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Here is a dish sold at auction as Republic period.
That ruby back looks very similar but also the rendering my issue with the posted plate as been the enamels and the rendering. This flower and the leaves are very much republic also was late Qing too. The lotus leaves on the table look like 20th century lotus leaves I haven’t found one rendered this way on a Yongzheng period example. The lack of shading all Yongzheng examples have good shading in the clothing. In the  Yongzheng plates the colors are bright and popping this plate is pretty neutral almost washed out. Better closeups of that flower are still needed but the enamels thickness are still inline with 20th century and late Qing.
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Another area that can be pointed to as to why this is more likely modern is the diaper border rendering, which is not done at a quality of the Yongzheng period, and maybe not even Republic either in my opinion based on the other examples posted. But I agree with others that it would be interesting to hear Peter's assessment, as this is an interesting study piece either way. JohnÂ
I have several general observations regarding your saucer.
I don’t think a modern porcelain decorator could resist placing a Yongzheng mark on the back to cap their efforts on this saucer.
I know that even in the 18th century there were always various degrees  of decorative skills based on the economics of production.  We tend to focus on imperial production skill levels which are basically ‘money is no object’.
Finally, there can be such variation in color tones from photos to monitors that I have never totally trusted this medium as the only source of authentication for a questionable piece. Â I would urge you to take your saucer to an expert for actual handling for their opinion. Â I hope you live near a city with these types of resources such as London, New York, or Paris.
John I noticed that too, but it is also evident on one of the other pieces. I haven't checked further than that.
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