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@johnshoe because of the picture it’s hard to pin base down. It look like it has groves. But it could also be coils. Groves are manufactured coils are not. Coil are only done with clay. Which would be pre porcelain. That blue ring at top looks out of place.
@lotusblack Interesting. So, by manufactured grooves, what do you mean? Do you mean they are artificially done to imitate older age? Or do you mean that the grooves are simply the result of a newer process for how these were made more recently, but not necessarily a fake, just a certain process related to a particular timeframe? It defintely has significant indentations between the coils/grooves. On the bottom of the inside there was a fine coating of a slippery white powdery substance. When I saw it I recall saying, "what the hell is that?".
@jbeer2121 There seemed to be too much powder for it to be just from that. It was more like something wet had coated the entire bottom at some point then dried and left a thin residue. I get your explanation about the grooves, but then how is that different from coils?
Maybe an adhesive then, to bond it to the base, and it dried up and turned to a powder? The coils would be from what would essentially be concentric bands of porcelain that are stacked and then smoothed to join them, rather than a slab whose thickness is trimmed down.
Check out this tutorial, even though it is basic, it is essentially how pottery has been made for ages.
-Jeremy
Dear John,
that red soffused of green that you see in the scales of the qilin is absolutely normal.
That is underglaze copper red, which firing was notoriously problematic. If succesful, it should be pure red, but most often has those green spots. It can also turn brown.
That vase is in Transitional style but I think that it is a copy, the shape is not correct and that dark blue rim should not be there.
Giovanni
@clayandbrush Thank you for explaining the color issue. Now that you said it, I can recall hearing how red sometimes turned green, I had just not actually seen a good example of it before now. It actually looks rather attractive on this one in my opinion. I especially like the way it caused the tree top to look. I noticed in my research the same aspects you mention. The original examples seem to be a bit more narrow, not so fatly potted. I also noticed the rim will be brown dressed if anything rather than blue. And the banding at the bottom is more thickly done on this one than it is on the oldest ones. So it does seem possible to be a later copy. But if so then how much later would be my question? I feel that the artwork is well done. The shading has some nice nuance. The artist colored within the lines. It has interesting details. Here are some more pictures. Perhaps these will help illuminate the piece further. It is evening and a bit overcast outside, plus as everyone knows I take bad pictures on a bad phone camera so consider that when viewing. Also, you can see the interior, with the bottom being coated by a slippery residue. The white patches are where I ran a finger across. It could easily be cleaned out. Also, the grooves/coils on the base can be seen on the inside as well, although that might not show up very well in these photos because of the residue, etc.
Hi John,
I don't think the Qilin vase has a lot of age to it. I've rewatched Peter's videos over and over again on dating footrims, and looked at so many of Rob Michiels online auction catalogs, but I've not seen this foot rim on any of them.
I'll offer my potter's perspective, though. The grooves are not evidence of coils, or handbuilding, but rather the trimming process of the clay body when it is leather hard. If you follow the groove, it is a spiral. Potters place the vase upside down on a wheel, center it, then secure it down with clay. Once it's secured upside down, they use a trimming tool to remove excess clay from the base of the piece, and subsequently make the foot. What you see on this vase is one smooth movement of the trimming tool from the center of the base all the way to the footrim as the wheel is turning, and it looks like the spiral even follows through the footrim. A potter would easily be able to go back on a second run-through and smooth out the base, which makes me feel like they were in a rush. Adding to this, these grooves are the same markings that are left from modern trimming tools.
Does anyone know, or have a reference to the kinds of tools potters of the transitional period had available? I assume trimming during the transitional period was done with more rudimentary tools, or perhaps a knife. In my opinion, those tools would not leave the same kind of grooves as the modern tools.
Kindly,
John
@bartholin Thanks, I like learning about this. Here's a link to one that has a little similarity in color but that is flatter, etc. https://www.chairish.com/product/2545162/mid-17th-century-transitional-chinese-wucai-ginger-jar
With all the work that went into this vase, it is interesting to me that they didn't flatten the base. Is there any other explanation you can think of other than they were rushed? Is it an artists choice type of thing? Does it sometimes not matter? It seems based on this video that it only would have taken a minute to do, so not like a huge effort was needed, so it seems odd that it wasn't done if it was going to be something that would bother people, you know what I mean? Unless maybe the potter didn't think it was a problem to leave it like that.
John,
Sorry for the delay. Here are photos of various transitional/ming period unglazed bases with some evidence of, what Peter refers to as, "turning lines". You'll see none were similar to this one. These are from Peter's blog:
On your questions, I think your vase is beautiful. It's nicely hand-painted and I like the composition. However, given how easy it is to create a smoother base, I assume it's due to the assembly line process of making these vases. I doubt even in modern times that one person throws on the wheel, paints, glazes, and trims. I'm assuming the person trimming the vases has a long queue and was in a rush. Maybe there were more painters than trimmers. I hope I'm wrong though, and it turns out to be older than I think.
John
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