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I went ahead and asked Peter. It is a learning experience. These are so common online that I am sure Peter has handled several of them. We shall see! 🙂
I'll let you know what he says.
Charles
@imperialfinegems That photo inside looks old, especially with the iron spots. But, I also see some shadows that show fine rings from the pot spinning as its being formed...high speed potting wheel?
I really never thought about if these Canton vases might be machine formed or not. I guess I assumed that since there are hand painted modern versions that forming the pot by hand would also occur.
Most fake porcelain now is still hand made , meaning turned on a wheel rather than made in a mould. The rough potting of the interior on this vase also shows the difference between newer examples and a good old vase like the one in Rob Michaels auction. The other auction example , from Coronata, looks like a fake to me.
tam
Hi Tam18 and Greeno107,
Very interesting comments. I did reach out to Xin from www.wyssemaria-art.com who responded with the following information.
So Xin thoughts are late Qing. Shall be interesting to see what's Peter's response.
In furtherance Xin provided the following information.
This has been a most interesting thread with various thoughts and opinions.
Mark
I would agree with your friend's assessment about there being no market among collectors for fake Canton, but...
If you ever have the chance to visit the South East United States, historic cities like Charlestown and Savanah are so desperate to meet the demand for blue and white 'antique' porcelain, that modern Canton style pieces sell from $150 to $350 each, and home decorators could care less about authenticity or quality of rendering.
In fact, selling genuine Canton in these areas has become difficult because home decorators who buy this stuff are only interested in the appearance of it being 'antique' and have no sense of what authenticity looks like. So, if you had a fine 19th c Canton vase priced at $500 next to the one we are discussing in this thread priced at $250, the $250 vase would sell 99 out of a 100 times more often.
Bad for antiques, but good to know should you have acquired a collection of blue & white modern copies.
Hi Greeno107,
Oddly we have a similar sernario here in AUSTRALIA. Especially up in the affluent area of Sydney.
Buyers paying silly pricles at auction for what is clearly modern interpretation.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Sorry to hear that this kind of craziness is universal.
Alas, we reap what we sow! Every public school in the USA has done away with teaching art, believing that finacial resources are better used on math and science. And an advocate of science, I appreciate the sentiment, but look where we are as a result.
We have grown into a society that has unheard ability to create the most sophisticated technology, even artificial intelligence, and we have people and companies that have amassed mountains of wealth, yet we lack the ability as a single human race to find common ground to ensure that everyone has enough food to eat, medicine to avoid a catastrophic health crisis, communication skills to overcome our social and relious differences, and a plan to keep our natural world healthy.
Art has been the common link holding human culture together for centuries up until the last 10-20 years. Let's hope that groups like this one prosper.... it's far more important than I think any of us really give credit.
I have heard but can't confirm that this phenomenon is also present in China.
Buyers prefer to buy new jade carvings depicting old themes. Rather than buying old carving etc. They shy away from purchasing actual pieces from the period. Often paying highly inflated prices with no hope of recovering their original investment (if you call it that).
All very odd. I guess it's the in thing to do with regard to interior decoraters.
Mark
@greeno107 I agree with every one of your sentiments. It is the attention to detail, the careful artistry, the priority of quality and harmony that causes me to so appreciate the greatest period pieces. The great pieces represent doing things the best we can. They represent the achievement of excellence that comes from imagination, intention, striving and precision. I think the battle between the cheap vs quality has probably always existed in a relative way, just like the good vs evil battle going on within us all. At any moment there is a choice to be made. Which way will we go today? I have often wondered if we will get to a point when our senses will have been dulled to the point of not being able to recognize true beauty, or worse yet, that we would have an aversion to it. Take a child who is raised on fast food as an example. If you give that boy the choice between a wholesome home cooked meal and junk food he may choose the junk because that is what he is used to. His tastes have been conditioned to that junk. To him, that is normal. So, even though his body needs the nutrition of the better meal, his mind and tastes steer him away from it, making it unavailable to him. An example of this playing out perhaps in our field of interest comes from the suggestions that a couple of forum members have made that even within the larger auction houses now some of those tasked with choosing what they will sell are not as knowledgeable as we would hope they would be. The claim is that this has resulted in the overreliance upon provenance for what they sell, because in many cases they may lack the confidence to make their own objective assessment to recognize a newly surfaced good piece on its own merit. I certainly hope this isn't true in most cases, but it has been raised by some here with personal experience dealing with them as an ongoing frustration and concern. At any rate, here at the forum what I notice is how focused we all are on each object for what it is. Members are here to examine details to assess true quality. But regardless of our knowledge and focus on authenticity and quality, industry leanings have an impact on us all. Say your recently posted about Jiaqing tea tray you found at an antique store for example. My sense is that everything seems right about it to you, and yet still you feel you must try and find another one like it to help make the case that it is authentic, not really to yourself, but more so to the auction house reps who will be tasked with saying yes or no when you approach them with it.
What Peter said. I guess I paid a little two much, but I still like it!
Charles
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