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Good Morning,
Those are pics the auction house sent me of their lots after i enquired for more info on them. I did not take the pics, the lots have been up for sale at their asia week.
They are proved period pieces with which to compare the different possible markers.
Most of my collection is scavenged around with no proved provenance, which i think it's kind of required to sell with them. But they take a look at all kind of things and are well informed, here is their link.
PS- Any reliable autcion house would do. But i think you will like them. They are as meticulous in their research and references as you are. Gotheborg also good one to go to, as someone else here has said, i think Julia. They have a fee for full access which i think is worth it plus it helps support the site.
nx
I see... But I think vases with luting lines are also thrown on a potters wheel, but I'm not sure. The blue and white "xuande" dragon jar has both a luting line in the middle and a swirled interior from wheel turning.
Of course they are thrown on the wheel. It has nothing to do with the luting line. The luting line is because it is not possible to introduce the hand in a narrow hole.
Giovanni
Hi,
The blue xuande dragon jar sounds nice, which is it, do you mean from the same auction. I'll look it.
On vases with luting lines are also thrown on a potters wheel maybe, - i think this is clayandbrush contention that vases like yours would have a joint line if hand made. But there was confusing opposing posts on this so i also dont know what to make of that.
According to the auction info sometimes we can see them joint luting lines and wheel turn swirls on these pieces but not always.
I'd rather a vase made in one piece by skilled artisans on the wheel. I also like if there is visible wheel swirls -wheel thrown, or smooth - not visible, either.
All the posts and searches on other markers like colour, shape, motif, etc, seem clearer and useful to me, and together they paint a better picture of this vase as you have researched it, also the lines and swirls if it applies. Plus you back up your approach you show your references and the process you go through which is great.
I've learned quite a bit on this thread, thanks for that.
Goodnight.
I think Clayandbrush did not illustrate or any example of his hand made pieces with lines, of a type with Corey's vase. I've looked for like known period items I asked if we would look for a line and wheel marks on the sale pieces shown. There's also mentioned about line in Ming pieces.
Wheel turn and joint lines seem not that great here as markers go, there seems to be two opposing interpretations of lines on this thread.
I think of luting lines on cast porcelain. One well known example of joint lines found in cast -not hand-made pieces now, is everyone's favourite the terracotta warriors. And horses and chariots. I think these are amazing because they were made on a production line to such a grand scale at such an early time, well before industrial times mass production in the west.
In this case the luting lines are interesting as they had to join the limbs to the torso on a human form, all cast and joined in an assembly line (no pun..). I think this is how they were made. In this case it is amazing to find the signs of the making process.
But making a small vase shape is not so complex as a life like warrior shape where so many separate pieces must be made and assembled, and therefore to me the idea of finding a luted line on a simple vase made by hand is not that great, when compared to a sophisticated process cast and joined up human form.
On hand made pieces, using joints on say very big rounded vessels, prior to modern casting would make sense, but otherwise. ?
Here yet another way to throw a vase at the wheel. Can jump to the end for the neck.
Cheerio.
Hello everybody,
No offence but this thread is developing into some sort of soap opera. Yes, there was a lot of interesting comments and I have learnt a lot, truly appreciate all very interesting remarks and information you all have shared here with others, but maybe it's time to establish for good if Corey's vase is what he thinks it is or not? 96, well now 97 posts here already. I think it's time for some answer otherwise I would recommend closing this thread or moving it into general discussion.
Kind regards,
Adrian
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Ok. My conclusion, definitely valuable. As to of what period i'd also like to know what definite answer on that from the expert members.
nx
Dear Adrian,
you are right, this has become a sort of soap opera, but it is like that since the beginning.
Sorry to be explicit (I am convinced that the best way for learning and /or arriving at a definitive conclusion is to be explicit) but from this thread there is nothing to learn.
Since the beginning Corey continue jumping from Imperial pieces to high quality ones, of different type, technique and even materials, jumping here and there except considering the really similar pieces, which ahs been suggested since the beginning: at best, late Republic but for sure, IMO, later.
Nothing to learn from this way of proceeding, and in fact there were no progress, the truth is there, known since the beginning.
Dear Nixe, since I am explicit, sorry to say that your approaches are not the right ones, you are at your beginning and if you want to learn you have to change your approach too. Buy books of Chinese ceramics and do not compare things that are not comparable, like the Terracotta army with 20th C porcelain, or Chinese classic porcelain with studio pieces of modern potters.
And just to start with, be sure that all classic Chinese vases has a luting line.
Giovanni
Shouldn't we then just agree the vase is 20th century? That's fine with me. I say republic period, some say post republic period, while a few say modern. I'm probably the only one who would like to stay in the faith it's possibly a period piece. Peter Combs apparently haven't found the vase interesting enough to comment in this thread. As a republic period piece the vase is still valuable.
If people insist in continuing a debate on wheel throwing or other topics, simply just start a new topic. I would like to send pictures to sotheby's or another english auctioneer, but it's not gonna be this vase that will be the among the first things I show them.
@nixe: The blue and white Xuande dragon jar is a jar I bought online and talked about in another thread. It was dated to the 19th century by the seller but I belive it's likely an authentic Xuande period jar. That one will go to authentiation by the means of TL- testing and I will probably also send pictures of it to the english auctioneers, and perhaps also to our local auctioneer Bruun Rasmussen.
Hope this fullfill the request by Adrian. I also think it's a good idea to let this thread rest. It's becoming too blurry.
Dear Corey, I am just handling a Xuande dragon dish these days.
Where can I find your thread about the Xuande vase?
Thank you
Giovanni
Dear Corey,
BTW it is not possible to date a Ming porcelain vase through the TL test, it doesn't work because porcelain is to much vitrified, it is almost glass.
Giovanni
This is the thread with Xuande marked dragon jar. Like I wrote, the jar is almost certainly genuinely old, but the heaping and piling looks like that of Ming porcelain and not like 19th century.
Are you sure Ming porcelain can not be TL-tested? Oxford has a chapter on porcelain testing on their website.
https://www.oxfordauthentication.com/authenticity-testing/porcelain-and-stoneware/
And someone here posted a link to a Xuande style vase at Bonhams that was also TL-tested.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24904/lot/286/?category=grid&length=560&page=1
Dear Corey,
Sorry to say that, if you are thinking to spend money for TL testing that jar you are wasting money. For sure. There is not the slightest chance that that jar is Ming.
I am saying that based on the pictures alone, although the picture of the base is missing. But even without knowledge, just think for one instant: do you have an idea of how much is worth a genuine Xuande jar of that type? And do you think that the owner will sell it on ebay, and you were the only one in the World to spot such treasure?
About Oxfrod Authentication. Better that I keep my mouth shut, we are in a Public space.
But I know that it is not possible to reliably authenticate porcelain with TL test. I know what I am talking about. The fact that they provided that certificate for Bonham’s vase saying that it is 100 years old is laughable. Ask them how they can say that, on porcelain, and considering that the TL test has a tolerance error of plus-less 300 years. And ask yourself if it is correct that they do not supply the graphs of the testing. Is that serious? You are paying for a test, then it is your right to SEE the result of the test.
I am not reporting here all the stories behind this, why I am saying so, but believe me I am talking of facts.
Serious Laboratories do not perform TL tests on porcelain.
Giovanni
In my eyes there is a very good change the jar Ming dynasty. But if you want to discuss the jar further and would like to explain what aspects of it is that makes you sure it can't be Ming plese do it in the thread where I first posted the jar or eventually in this thread which I have just updated with a couple of examples of possibly authentic Xuande period pieces sold as 19/20th century. N
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