Dear Corey,

I don’t know what you exactly mean by cast porcelain.

What I meant is to check if inside the vase you can see a luting line, i.e. the junction between two parts. Usually it is an horizontal line placed in correspondence of the largest diameter of the vase.

It should be visible by inspecting the interior by means of a light. If it is not possible, another way is lightning the interior; since the porcelain is semi transparent, it should be possible to see from outside if there is a dark line there.

Giovanni

I find your query about junction line interesting. Like Cory, i would like to know more about your thinking behind the question. As he says the vase is smooth and reading this great thread i find nothing that'd suggest there would be some joint line -presumably indicative of casting or manufacture. I wonder what makes you ask it. It would be interesting to know more of the type of chinese pottery you are thinking of that would have joints.  ? Im curious. XN.

Hello, nixe

 This is what we are looking for in side corey to help put a date on his vase this will help rule out molding or hand done  tap on picture it should make it bigger,John

With cast porcelain I mean porcelain made with a mold. As opposed to wheel turned porcelain. There doesn't seem to be a luting line like you say, but I might have to take a closer look using a stronger lamp. A white  line is formed in the middle by the lights reflection, but I guess this is not what you mean? And what would it mean if there is a junction between two parts? I thought this was mainly seen on Ming pieces. The reticulated revolving vase I talked about has very clear signs of wheel turns on the inside. But this would only seperate it from the mass produced cast copies and not from 20th ct. copies made after old traditions, I would guess?

Hello, Corey

if you see one line in the middle that means it’s a modern reproduction piece it could 

be from late 40 to now they had molds for bowls in the very early period but not for 

vase that I have found or read about if a bright light does not show theses wheel turn 

you’ll no what you have. John

Dear Corey, Nixe, all,

here is what I mean. Corey said that the vase surface is very smooth. It is not clear if he meant the outside or the inside of the vase.

Now, if he was referring to the inside, I am inventing him to check if he can see a luting line.

I know it is not always easy to check that. I do that by inserting a LED strip through the neck and look at the transparency of the wall.

Regardless the age, being it Ming or earlier or made yesterday, if the vase is hand made there must be a luting line. Having a luting line it means that the vase has been made in two pieces, which then are luted together by mean of the glaze. Depending if the glaze was in excess or scarce, the luting line can either looks darker or lighter in transparency.

In a vase like that of Corey, the luting line can be at the largest diameter of the body or at the base of the neck. The attached picture shows both places where it should be. More commonly, on gallbladder vase it is at the base of the neck, which correspond to the upper red lines in the picture.

Why the luting line must be there? It is very simple; it is impossible to mold a vase like this one in a single piece on the wheel, because the neck is too much narrow and it is not possible to introduce the hand.

Now, if Corey vase does not have the luting line, it means that it has not been molded on the wheel but it is made with the slip cast technique instead, which allows to made a vase like this in a single piece, and it is typically very smooth at the inside. If it has no luting lines at all then it is slip cast made, which means that it is not so old (as I think by all the already mentioned reasons). I think that in China slip cast technique started within the first half of the 19^th C., about 1920 or 1030, I think.

Giovanni

Is this a true Qianlong mark on the cloisonné? Thanks. -Jim

Sorry if this is interfering, but for simplicity's sake, please put responses to Jim's query in this thread:

https://bidamount.com/the-bidamount-asian-art-forum/help-identify-this/please-help-identify

It will be so much easier to keep track of opinions. Thanks!  

Julia

Interesting that John steward says that a line in the middle means the vase is modern while Giovanni says that if there are no lines then the vase is not so old.

There doesn't seem to be any lines visable inside of my vase and it is very smooth both on the inside and on the outside. But Giovanni, are you certain that a vase like this can not be thrown on a potters wheel? I just watches some videos on youtube that suggests such vases are actually thrown on a potters wheel, like this one:

Taking a line for a walk.

far as i can tell, 

john 's post reads that one line in the middle (and/or absence of wheel turn marks) would indicate a modern reproduction (40's-on). 

clayandbrush post reads that no line in the middle, or at base of neck, (lute), would indicate a modern reproduction (slip-Cast).

both, a line and no line means modern reproduction.

?

confused.

(Or, a line can indicate both old or modern, except when applied to this piece when it means only ever modern...?)

Like John, i'd think a line would indicate casting - your moulding, and not hand made. I had thought too narrow a neck could be made with tools.

Is the middle line seen on Ming pieces also explained that way. ? 

Is the wheel turn ridges present on all vases, could i expect to find them inside this vase and would we look for your luted joints here, for example - 

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2018/important-chinese-art-n09904/lot.110.html

or here,

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2018/important-chinese-art-n09904/lot.136.html

or of a different period,

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2018/important-chinese-art-n09904/lot.160.html

or indeed, 

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/2018/the-yamanaka-reticulated-vase-hk0826.html?locale=en

Beautiful vase and research. Very engaging thread cause everyones so knowledgeable. Corey's posts info and images and links are so thorough. Also like how you show the difference photos make on shine and colour and how to allow for that. Im interested in jade and would have liked to know what the deleted post said on the subject. 

Thanks.

NX

Giovanni is talking about "luting" where the vase is made in separate pieces and then "luted" together to form one finished piece. These lines run horizontally and can be seen inside and outside the item where the pieces were joined. This is evidence that the item was hand made. Even without clicking on the link and enlarging the picture you can see a horizontal line below the neck of the blue vase in the post above this one. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c5DJd7-bns4 Hello, Corey 

what Chinese porcelain collector neeto watch  video on how there made and painted today 

China has a kin still making pieces the same way as they did from Ming period though today 

So all we are doing is looking to see if it hand made or mass produced piece then you go 

from there. John

Dear Corey,

there is a LOT of difference between your vase and the one that we see in the video provided by you.

You can see that the narrow neck is not like that of your vase, which is much longer.

And as you can see there are clear signs of potting inside the neck and its base.

All the Chinese vases of that type that I have seen has the luting line. Unless they are slip cast.

Giovanni

Hi,

Thanks all for post. Thanks Corey and John for videos. There may be a visible luted line on the blue vase like James sees it, i cant tell. 

I've gone to the exhibition and i have gone and asked the peeps at Sotheby's and they have been great. They sent many pics of the lots prior to the auction, and some info on this. They write:

"It’s actually difficult to get a good photo of the interior since the mouth of the vases is so small. But the interior of the two pieces should all be plain, undecorated. Sometimes you are able to see the luting lines and wheel turn marks, but not always.

These porcelain pieces were made by multiple pottery workers of the time, they were artisans rather than artists. It’s impossible to know who made them."

The blue vase interior seems smooth, it is clear glazed as characteristic of vases of this type. Some of the pics are good and this vase is a beauty, Yves Klein deep blue Qianlong porcelain that looks -and i think feels like, glass.

Cheers.

Nx

What?  You send pictures of your own pieces to Sotheby's or what? Now I'm a little think it's a little strange my vase has an uneven bumpy surface which would normally indicate it's a thrown vase rather than a cast vase when it's not possible to throw a vase of that shape on a potters wheel. But there must be something I've misunderstood.