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Hi to all,
here is another one of my mystery pieces. I bought it some years ago from a private Ebay seller who dissolved a collection he had inherited. The collection was far from impressive, apart from the blue and white plate everything else was probably 20th century Chinese and Japanese.
I bought the small blue and white jar for little money and it keeps puzzling me ever since. The foot is strangely hard, it feels completely smooth and marble like. The glaze has many tiny scratches (sand blasted?) but is still shiny. Originally the lower part of the jar was a bit dirty but I cleaned it. All this would indicate a modern fake. But I wonder about the great care that went into the decoration. It's just 11 cm/4,33" high, so the pattern with phoenixes and chrysanthemums is quite finely painted. No printed parts, not even in the border decoration. Better quality than what I would expect from a late 20th item. Could it be earlier, from the first half of the 20th century? The last picture shows the little scratches before cleaning.
Birgit
Hi Birgit,
This type of ware is not in my normal realm of interest etc, so my thought is probably way off.
I believe your miniature wine jar is much earlier than you think. I really like the way the flowers are done. Especially how they incorporated the mix of the blue and white. The Phoenix is superb.
The jar ouzes high quality in my opinion and thus I believe it would date to the middle of the Ming period.
Of course I may be totally wrong in my assessment, so I will adhere to the experience and expertise of more reliable members whose passion for this period of blue and white has been expressed here many times. 🤔
Mark
Thanks for your opinions about the jar. I have only a few Ming items but they have a different foot and the glaze is bluish. When I compare the jar with other items the bottom resembles most that of a 1950s jar. What still puzzles me is the high painting quality. I’m happy you noticed it too.
Birgit
Hi Birgit -
A rare disagreement with Mark🙂, but I do not think this is Ming ...
For comparison:- attached images of a large guan/cover, early 16th C, the main body decorated with phoenix amount lotus scrolls, a much smaller guan/cover, Wanli period, the body decorated with a large phoenix amongst peonies, and a tripod censer, also Wanli period, the body with phoenixes amongst clouds ...
These are all products from the 16th/early 17th C minyao, private kilns. Note the differences in the drawing and proportions of the phoenixes compared to your jar. The lower phoenix on your first image has a very small head, as is the bottom wing. The upper phoenix on your second image also had this feature, no body is show and the painting of left side wing and tail seem slightly disconnected ...
I would also add that the dark blue areas on some of the stems and scrolling leafs seemed to have been highlighted with a second application of cobalt, the neck exhibits virtually no ware and the porcelain/glaze tone, especially the base, appear very white/clean ...
As a whole it is well painted, but your dating to the mid/late 20th C may well be right ...
Stuart
Dear Birgit, all,
here is the chronological progression of my reading of this discussion😊.
I saw your images. Noted how the phoenixes were badly represented.
Especially the one of the second image, where it seems that the painter didn’t resist in the temptation of “gilding the lily”, i.e. trying to make it more interesting in his point of view, while it is exactly there that they fail. In fact I believe that he thought of representing the left wing of the bird as seen by downside, as if the bird was represented while turning to its left side. The result is that we have one wing seen from the upper side, and the other one from downside. That do not exist.
The body too is seen exclusively from the top.
The phoenix in the first picture, in the lower part of the jar, is even worst. The two wings seem directly joined each other. The legs, neck and head too are off.
As for the rest of the decoration, the tendrils are well drawn, but I do not remember of having seen those tendrils and those leaves around the flowers together. One way or another.
Then, the foot, neck, base, are showing that it must be, as you suspect, somewhere in the 20th century.
After all the above, I did read Mark’s and Tod’s comments. I understand why they thought that it could be earlier, the main point that fooled them, I think, is how well the tendrils has been drawn.
After that, I come to Stuart’s comment. Hey Stuart, you take the words from my mouth! 😊😊
Seriously speaking, agree completely, as always. (But one day we have to fight, no? 😊)
Regards,
Giovanni
Dear Giovanni -
No fighting from me - only continuing exchanges/discussions regarding thoughts and opinions!!🙂😆😂 ...
Regards
Stuart
Boy did I get this jar very wrong indeed.
Since Giovanni and Stuart's informative posting regarding the way the Phoenix has been portrayed along with the flowers/other it is no doubt that this jar is modern. It all makes sense once the subtle and not so subtle differences are pointed out by experienced eyes.
I think as pointed out by Giovanni I jumped the gun, so too speak with the way the flowers were drawn and hence jumped to a incorrect assumption about the possible period of this jar. Feel like a jackass. 🤣
In the future I shall endeavor to view said postings with a more whole overview rather than zooming in on aspects that leed incorrect assumptions.
Mark
Dear Giovanni,
your post opened my eyes, for the first time I really looked at the birds and they seem anatomically impossible. Looks like the wings are growing from the underside of the belly. Thank you all very much for the participation in this interesting discussion!
Birgit
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