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@lotusblack Great buy! I've never seen bowls like that...beautiful!
A friend has sent me a message about these bowls.
Hi Brian your bowls are very interesting as you mentioned you believe they might be Japanese I’m not so confident. The five cranes might give you this impression but during the late Ming early Qing period this was a popular motif in Chinese mythology. What makes me believe these are not Japanese bowls is the motif symbolizes Chinese mythology the cranes are flying toward the sun amount floating scrolls and clouds.( prosperity & Longevity) The center motif the “Shou” was highly used during the periods mentioned. The glaze. darker cobalt. transparency and shape are all evident in early Qing porcelain. During this period the Japanese were imitating Chinese marks and styles as this was what the market demanded. Items like this would have been meant for special events that would explain condition. I would highly recommend having them evaluated by an expert in transitional and early Qing wares.
I still think they are Japanese. As your friend points out, cranes and the symbols were also used on Japanese pieces and the market demanded the Japanese imitate Chinese styles. I would be more convinced in his/her opinion if it was suggested that the porcelain, the footrim, the glaze etc point to a Chinese origin.
I would love to know for sure either way, so why don't you send them off? It won't cost anything and you will probably get an idea of value, too.
This is getting exciting. What did your friend make of the mark on the back of the bowl, as it appears to be a typical Japanese arita mark ( Please be aware i have not researched the mark, I have not had time, and it could be anything. My opinion is literally just an observation without any research)
I guess before you do fo any further, check the Arita backmarks section on gothenborg.
https://archive.org/details/japanesemarkssea00bowe/page/80/mode/2up
https://archive.org/details/manualofmarksonp00hoopuoft/page/214/mode/2up
https://www.gotheborg.com/marks/20thcenturyjapan.shtml#arita
Hi Brian,
I don’t remember ever seeing 18th century Arita with a tight double ring on the base. Its most often a single ring, but well inside the foot, towards the center...not right at the crease as in later ware. Robert McPherson has a Facebook group concerning early Japanese porcelain. You may want to post it there for his take.
Best, Todd
take it with a grain of salt
For centuries, the kilns at Jingdezhen had produced the vast majority of the porcelain that ended up in the Imperial court and domestic markets but in the final decades of the Ming dynasty after the death of Emperor Wanli in 1619, the lack of imperial patronage forced the hands of the kiln owners. The needed to look for new markets and they started to make Chinese porcelain for the Japanese market.
Known as ko-sometsuke – ‘ko’ meaning ‘old’ and ‘sometsuke’ meaning ‘blue and white’ and produced between 1620 and 1645, it was an underglaze blue Chinese porcelain for the Japanese market manufactured to coincide with the increasing popularity of the tea ceremony that required a number of specific utensils. Ko-sometsuke porcelain was manufactured entirely to Japanese tastes and sensibilities.
Often called Tianqi porcelain (tenkei in Japanese) after the Ming emperor who reigned from 1621 to 1628, Ko-sometsuke porcelain, due to its uniqueness in the timeline of Chinese ceramics, is highly desirable by both collectors of Chinese porcelain and also those fascinated by the use of old blue and white porcelain in the traditional Japanese tea ceremonies.
The production techniques and designs of the old blue and white porcelain were a marked departure from the traditional Chinese methods. Ko-sometsuke porcelain was intentionally manufactured using poorly levigated clay and roughly potted with inconsistencies or imperfections that appealed to the Japanese. Often the glaze would flake off the body of the vessel and these edges, known as mushikui, or ‘earth worm nibbles’ were particularly prized.
In recent years discoveries have been made at Jingdezhen revealing the Tianqi strata of the shard heaps and ko-sometsuke fragments even with Tianqi marks have been revealed.
Maybe I’m fishing again.
@short-dong the marks are very troubling for me like they where writing a mark for a language they didn’t understand. To me the mark looks neither Chinese or Japanese I haven’t found a match. My best guess is they are shop marks. The reason I believe the vendor didn’t list right is because there probably isn’t anything to compare to. They are a blend of two origins and several time periods. They can’t be fakes because there not copying anything I think we all agree not modern. This is a time where everyone is right about something. I have sent pictures out. In my opinion an expert is going to have to hold one and determine to determine its authenticity.
@short-dong the marks are very troubling for me like they where writing a mark for a language they didn’t understand. To me the mark looks neither Chinese or Japanese I haven’t found a match. My best guess is they are shop marks. The reason I believe the vendor didn’t list right is because there probably isn’t anything to compare to. They are a blend of two origins and several time periods. They can’t be fakes because there not copying anything I think we all agree not modern. This is a time where everyone is right about something. I have sent pictures out. In my opinion an expert is going to have to hold one and determine to determine its authenticity.
Watership has very good point, the double circle is typical of Chinese and not Japanese. In fact if i recall Peter did a video on that point, and I did look for it earlier but could not find it.
@short-dong I’m impression was the circle were always single for Japanese and double for Chinese I would be interested in learning why this is.
If you read my first posts you will see I was troubled by the base. Then I posted a japanese bowl with the double circle and a similar mark. If one exists so might others especially if made in the chinese style, or to appeal to the chinese market.
Looking forward to hearing what the expert will say and when they think it was made.
This Japanese Plate is dated 1650 from Sotheby’s it has double circle as shown so it’s definitely not a Chinese only thingy.
If you read my first posts you will see I was troubled by the base. Then I posted a japanese bowl with the double circle and a similar mark. If one exists so might others especially if made in the chinese style, or to appeal to the chinese market.
Looking forward to hearing what the expert will say and when they think it was made.
Hi Julia,
Apologies. Your lightning fast, so quick i never even checked the picture of the base in the catawiki
Indeed this is the picture of the base that you posted that I missed. Thank you.
Rare shaped Blue & White porcelain Bowl with incurved molded lines - Japan - 18th- 19th century (late Edo period)
So the mystery of the bowls is over. They are Japanese early 18th century there is one in a Japanese museum Object 254) appears in Volume IV of the Shibata Collection of the Kyushu Ceramic Museum in Saga Prefecture, Japan so there it is solved.
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