I think the foot rim is too loose.

@rahawkins 

Certainly for Nabeshima, but for Hirado?

@jbeer2121 I only know Hirado for it's own style.

@rahawkins 

I honestly hadn't heard of this until I read "Hirado: Prince of Porcelains" by Louis Lawrence, but apparently the Hirado kilns produced a large number of Nabeshima "copies" before and after the close of the Nabeshima Kiln in 1871.  They are usually very hard to differentiate from the later Nabeshima wares, other than the tapering foot, and the lack of shading on many of the decorations and slight modifications of the designs.  Also the Hirado paste is much whiter.  The foot on mine tapers inwards and right as the glaze ends, angles in pretty steeply, the peaches are not shaded fully and mostly white, where the Nabeshima examples I have found are mostly fully shaded and textured... also the paste is pure white, so that is why I was leaning towards Hirado.

I just haven't come across a peaches example of Hirado "Nabeshima" yet, so I really cant confirm it.

Jeremy

@jbeer212,

Hi Jeremy,

Here is one from the Shangrila Guys in Amsterdam.

Very similar to yours and described as Nabeshima style 19th/20th century.

Mark

Hi Jeremy,

I'm hesitant to even give an opinion on Nabeshima-style dishes, because it is so tricky. The Shangrila peaches example, that Mark has found, is a bit finer and probably older, I would think. The shape of the leaves being the most obvious difference. You seem to be on the right track with your research regarding Nabeshima and Hirado, and others. 

Todd

I did found few similar examples with peaches, just to compare colors, etc.

I would like to say, I love quality Japanese porcelain. I can't understand why Japanese porcelain these days, so under rated when comparing to Chinese.. I am talking about high quality Japanese porcelain.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/40458

https://www.freemansauction.com/auction/lot/775-large-japanese-nabeshima-footed-dishbowl/?lot=416664&sd=1

https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/art-japan-online/nabeshima-dish-peaches-72/40309

Posted by: @jbeer2121

↑

Hey Folks,

The other of the weekend finds... A nicely decorated small Nabeshima type dish.  I am wondering if it is Hirado produced or not, maybe mid 19th century?  The decoration is quite high quality, but I know very little about these.  I do know there were copies produced after the end of the Edo period in the Hirado kilns, and of course there are still copies made today.

~15.2cm 3.9cm

Cheers,

Jeremy

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This is almost identical to yours. Japanese, they probably know what they are talking about. Sadly 1 picture, and not too much info except of a size. You will have to scroll down the article to find it. Described as Nabeshima.

It's Japanese website, you will have to translate page to English..I am using Chrome or Edge browser for translations when needed.

https://www.nakaya.org/en/manual/default.aspx?item=imari

This one is interesting as well to take a look at. Sorry when spamming within this thread. 

https://www.japanpotterynet.com/en/products/detail/1189

@lucky I agree the Japanese wares are very undervalued. But in an auction it only takes two interested buyers to bid something up higher, so why aren't the collectors bidding higher? Seems like it is a self fulfilling prophecy that Japanese wares are undervalued because the actual collectors of such refuse to place a higher value on them. The collectors will need to get out of their bargain shopping mentality in order to change this situation.

@johnshoe Let me put this way which way I see everything:

when last time you seen anything sold as Japanese porcelain, final sale price which clime up to 6 figures at any auction house? You will have to google it, and mainly you will find old auction houses sales, mainly Nabeshima wares in 5 figures zone. There is no need to talk about fairy tales which go into 7 figures zone. There is none? If there is, one is below, and I would love to see any other if there are any out there.

Samurai Armour does well usually and swords - but I am not following that, I am sure there are plenty good sales on those 2 categories somewhere.

Just only recently, year ago or so, Sotheby's they did renew again Japanese art sales at Sotheby's.

Chinese porcelain, at the decent auction house, this is common practice and no one is surprised by such an achievements anymore, like 5,6,7 or even 8 figures zone. Normal.

My point, my eyes are on Japanese porcelain as well, for a while now, and I can tell you this, you can find really & quality nice items for really attractive price.

Japanese is oldest existing civilization, with super rich history. Best calligraphers, Japanese..They can draw, and they do draw. Yes, Chinese they did invented porcelain and there are loads of stuff which was made..

But I think that Japanese porcelain is very much undervalued for no reason (in my eyes).

 (sale price at 1,013,000 GBP)

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/tsuneichi-inoue-collection-l15319/lot.69.html?locale=ja

@imperialfinegems 

Hey Mark,

Thanks for finding that, whats interesting is the mark is for the Showa Period studio of Koshun Ichikawa, who was granted the use of the Nabeshima Prince's Mon, the mark itself.   Could be from anywhere between 1940s when he was granted the use and the 1980s, however I believe after the 1960s or so the mark changed to a signature.  Certainly explains the quality of it, and why it conforms to the standard Nabeshima sizes, being a 5 Sun, as is mine. 1 Sun is 3.03cm, and on later examples there is usually a variance of plus or minus 1cm overall, but usually less.

My guess is mine then falls into the 20th century somewhere, maybe mid or so, but being that it conforms to the sizing, like originates at the Okiwachiyama studios or kilns.

Cheers,

Jeremy

@lucky 

Thanks for all the examples!  I had seen a lot of those true Nabeshima ones, they are quite spectacular.  The one from the Nakaya fountain pen co, is it 7 inches size wise?  that is the translation I got... I think while it is similar for sure, the sizing means it doesn't attempt to conform to the 3,5,7, and 10 sun sizing system, so produced unofficially technically.  At least now I could have a set of them though...

The funny thing talking about the Japanese market  conversation is it really comes down to the quality like everything else.  Though not on the same scale as the Chinese works of art, within the price ranges Japanese pieces are achieving, the very best examples seem to go way off the charts similar to the Korean and Chinese markets.  However the need to reclaim the cultural heritage of the Japanese is not the same as it is for the Chinese ( I am generalizing here a bit), but they also have never gone through the same level or destruction and eradication that the Chinese went through during their communist period.  The Japanese market it seems, still seeks out the best representations of the their cultural heritage as they have for a few thousand years, and the prices are consistent with that. 

That all said, I think that western collectors are basing their pricing off the Asian collectors pricing, in a way.  They see the immense amounts being paid for these Chinese pieces and are left to fight it out with the Eastern buyers.  I still think good examples of Japanese and even Korean wares are appreciated in the west and many people are willing to spend the money to get them, just not as many as want average examples of the Chinese wares.

Personally, I prefer the Japanese ceramics in some ways, I think the quality of "average" far exceeds the equivalent in Chinese ceramics.  I just purchased a Kutani coffee service for quite a bit on eBay (i'll post it when I get it), however it is possibly the very best Mille-fleur pattern I have ever seen, and I think i should have no trouble finding a buyer for such an exquisite set, for quite a bit more than I paid.  As far as what I collect, in my top 10 favorite pieces I would say six or seven are Japanese, one is Korean, and the rest Chinese.

Pardon the ramble, still working on my first cup of coffee....

Jeremy

Straight forward post.Accurate.

Well, I don't have favourite Japanese porcelain, Hirado quality carved dragons on porcelain always attracts my eye..And obviously Nabeshima porcelain.

This is my no.1 as Chinese porcelain in blue & white. Nothing can beat "that" in my life.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/important-chinese-art-hk0675/lot.3607.html

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2016/10/10/34424754.html