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Here is a interesting comment from a book that was written for the American export trade from China. If it was faked they knew that earlier pieces the flags had no stars.
@lotusblack That’s interesting.
Your platter would have been decorated in the Canton workshops. I expect an American merchant had some direction regarding the ship and it’s flag. I like the border work as much or more than the ship.
Congratulations!
@william I have to be very cautious about this piece as I have read many articles about 18th century export platters with boarders and not center motif later being repainted to trick buyers. And the market is very skeptical about everything. I had an authenticator tell me something was modern I asked him why he believed that and said because he’d never seen one. I didn’t want to tell him that it had providence of a 120 years and was well documented. I simply just wanting an appraisal. The faking of porcelain has ruined the trust of the market.
@lotusblack If you have Peter look at it I would be curious to know what his opinion is. Also, if you feel like sharing some close ups of the areas that show signs of wear that would be useful to see.
@johnshoe I won’t be sending it off to Peter no reason to do it. I have had several conversations today about the platter. I’ve heard several theories. My conclusion is of two things it’s either a very rare example of the period or one hell of a fake. It will most likely need to be handled by a major. If it is real they will most likely want to see it due to the nature of the market. If it not real and a fake they all will most likely pass on it. Since I’ve sent it off to the big three I’m sure it won’t take much time to get a answer.
@lotusblack I hope you update us when you hear back because I'm sure would all like to learn more from this example. I'll hope for the best for you and hopefully I'm wrong but I do continue to have my doubts. A couple more things that lead me to question it is the color of the gilt which to me seems a bit too dark for a period piece. Also the orange peel seems too active, with the ripples looking to be more numerous than I would expect. The pictures are limited so maybe these are just lighting issues, it's hard to tell.
Here is a picture in the photo box.
I don't know if this is helpful, but it can't hurt. I was browsing the Wintherthur collection and came across this ship dated 1794. The size of the flag is interesting.
http://museumcollection.winterthur.org/imutest/imu.php?port=40138&request=multimedia&irn=77973
Ah. I know little about your flag, I should learn more really as I always look carefully at the British one when it appears because it can be a useful tool.
Hey Brian,
I didn't have my books near me when I saw this this morning, so I waited to post. Despite being an impressive platter, I fear that it is a blend of so many different periods and decorations, my assumption is it is fake, meant to deceive.
The platter itself certainly looks good for say 1770-1790 or so... I currently have one similar form( a bit more Ogee form, but close) and period, and as you can see the foot and the chicken skin looks pretty much spot on, but the enamel on yours seems to be lacking the fluidity and the gilding is harsh and dark.
The Fitzhugh border is concerning as the shading and the color is not quite right, at least not for the supposed period, which I also must say is a bit early for such a defined Fitzhugh border like that. Also gilt spearheads in the cavetto seems off to me as well, if the platter was say 1760/1770/1780/ 1790(might be a bit late but I'll include it for the period range) I suppose it would be okay, but being that I as far as I know the border should be circa 1800, if not within the next ten years. It also seems a bit stiff.
But the real issue for me is the ship, which can date to no earlier than 1850 or so because of the shape and form. Yours is also copying a known ship, which can be found in China For The West, by David Howard and John Ayers, page 229, from the Mottahedeh Collection. I am sorry I don't have a better picture, but the ship in question is far more detailed, and less stiffly drawn.
Now as William says, this would have been decorated at Canton, perhaps they grabbed an old platter and decorated it in the 1850's but to me, the wide date range of the individual styles, and the fact that they picked an obscure but known ship, is troubling. It is known and has been discussed on Gotheborg ( some of these posts are 8-10 years old, so there has been time to perfect these), that people have seen copies of David Howard's books as well as many others, floating around the workshops in China where fakes are being produced, and on a daily basis I see countless pieces of rare armorial and export porcelain pop up in obscure places, when the few known examples are in important collections, I find that troubling, and it means I buy far less and am far more fearful when I buy.
Just my thoughts, and while I hope the major three comeback and have an example to put my thoughts at ease.
Sorry, but Cheers,
Jeremy
Brian,
Sorry, I should have added that I think from a decorative standpoint it is quite stellar, and you most certainly didn't overpay.
Also I suspect if it were real it would be about three times the estimate you were given.
Jeremy
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