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Here is a reproduction bronze that fake patina was added too.Â
@lotusblack These metal casted pieces I think are harder to figure out than porcelain. The whole patina business can get very complicated so I just go on overall appearance because I lack the experience with authentic pieces anyway. I recently bought an iron head I thought was really old. Peter felt early 20th and said they made a lot of such things around then. I have another archaistic bronze. One seasoned collector said early Ming, another said 19th C. Who's right, who's wrong...who knows? If I sell it I suppose I can just date it to anywhere in the past 700 years. 🤣Â
@lotusblack Which piece did you buy from Christies that 8 of 10 thought was fake? That's funny! I'd love to see a picture because I don't recall it. Â
@johnshoe I didn’t post it here because there was no need but the label was pealing a little and everyone on another forum was light it’s fake.
@lotusblack Well it's a good thing the pictures disappear after a few months or I would have a super nice collection on the metaverse. 🤣 🤩Â
@lotusblack That's pretty funny! It's like how everyone here thinks the felt feet mean it's a fake. I swear, when I finally get my hands on something mark and period, I'm going to load it up with a bunch of felt feet and then post it on here for assessment just to see what people say about it. Of course, now that I've given away my plan, I might put up some fake ones with felt feet too, just to keep people guessing.Â
I have a glass cabinet booth in a shop here in town. That why I post so much I try to give a complete description as I can. Everything I put in the booth gets gone. I can buy something for $25 bucks and get $75 to $100 some only want antiques other home decor but it’s important for me to be honest so I do my best. I don’t make huge amounts of money doing this but it pays for travel and expenses to more sales. I retired at 49 so I need something to do. Lol
John, you are misunderstanding the felt pads. They are commonly used by sellers hoping to mislead in the same way house sellers bake bread before viewings. It is intended to hit some subconscious spot that then relays misleading impressions to the brain. Sorry that is not very technical, but you get what I mean.
People on here who have come across that trick, know better than to assume felt pads are reason enough to judge something a fake. Felt pads alone are not what one judges a piece on; you know yourself that you have to look at the whole thing and we do.
Brian, many years ago I bought some bronze items, I liked them but no one else did as I was the only bidder. I guess from the lack of interest they had little age andI sold them for around the same price. They had patina etc, probably faked only I wouldn't know, but they also had that white stuff. Is it really arsenic? Or in this case, fake arsenic (I hope).
@julia I like what you say about felt pads. The subconcious is a point I never considered in connection with fakes. But yes, it makes sense. Maybe I am too strict with felt pads. They seem to be used more in America than in Europe. I have never encountered any on one of the pieces I've bought. Another intention of the faker could be to make the item look like it just came out of some old fashioned household where it stood for decades on a mahagony table - instead of fresh from the kiln. Felt pads are a cheap and simple way to create an impression of age, together with old labels soaked in black tea, and so are used extensively by fakers. (Just as dirt suggesting the item was dug out of the ground where it was hidden during Cultural revolution.) Of course the most important is to judge the piece as a whole. If it is already doubtful, felt pads and old labels can tip the scale to the negative, though that wasn't intended by the fakers.
Birgit
@julia I hope it’s not something toxic. As for this piece having fake patina I couldnt really tell I mean couldn’t it just been dropped in a pond for few months? My problem with this Jue is really two things the amount of corrosion on the inside compared to the outside. To me it should be more uniform but my biggest issue is how it was found. In a shop in Colorado just laying around seems just to easy. There are a load of pickers running around looking for Chinese artworks an 1000 year old Vessel just laying about most likely not. Because of the amount of fakes produced it really come down to math. Like the lottery due to rarity it’s one in a million because there are probably a million fakes to the one authentic piece and I’m realistic person the funny thing is if it was priced at about $200 buck I wouldn’t have touched it at $25 bucks it’s a good conversation.Â
I certainly agree with that last point! Some things are just worth the risk, especially if it means you (or all of us) learn something.
You really worried me with the arsenic thing. 😊Â
I decided to take a 220x photo of the patina structure for study. I hope to compare it with a new fake bronze patina.
Â
@craig I found this comparable the description is very interesting.Â
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4068927_440-chinese-cast-iron-wine-vessel-jue-c1000-bc
Thanks, Brian, very interesting indeed! Sounds like maybe iron pieces used two-part molds, while bronzes used three.
@craig this two part casting got me to thinking. To joint them together would require another process or two to seal the vessel due to being iron wouldnt the vessel need waterproofing this would explain the lining of the surface.  This seems to be more processing and firing. To me wouldnt a faker just use modern technology to make a simple mold that eliminates the need for additional firing and sealing of the vessel. On the three part mold I don’t recall seeing any needed jointing. I believe this may be do to iron needing to fired at a much higher temperature and the liquid not being able to flow properly into a three piece mold.Â
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