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So I got this today digging. I've have to dig lately because the estate sales have been very competitive people waiting 5 hours for a 19th century bowl. During my dig in the dealers mall under a pile of stuff this was laying on the floor. $25 bucks. I thought it was a copy but after inspection I'm seeing authentic patina. I hear Peter mentioning the fakes in the market. It seems legit. I forgot to mention its a large bronze over 12 inches tall.
Nicely cast. The brown patina is concerning. Did you test with a magnet?
Regarding assessing age… the more metallic in feel /sound (if you flick it), the newer it is.
The more fossilized/mineralized in feel / sound, the older.
Can you post a close up of the vase where the legs join the body? And the interior?
@greeno107 I do believe this vessel to be iron casting. As the rust is present in the patina I also believe it was gilded at some point. My understanding is iron was not used in Bronze Age which would suggest a reproduction.
I am confused. Have you changed your mind about it being authentic or did you mean it was a legit piece but not as old as original pieces? So an authentic, old reproduction rather than a modern copy.
Even if you have changed your mind and think it is recent, it would be good to see the photos Tim asked for. I enjoy these threads as I know so little about old metalware.
Never had an interest in collecting bronzes, but two years ago I visited an exhibition at my local Asia Society of ancient bronzes from the collection of the Minneapolis Museum of Art. There must have been 30 examples of ancient Chinese bronzes and it was obvious I was looking at the ‘best of the best’. This was at the start of the pandemic and I was the only person there other than the guard.
What I observed was that without exception, every piece was finely cast with incredible detail. Even through the various patinas on their surface, the cast designs were absolutely stunning down to the smallest detail. Looking at the last photo of your example, the level of casting doesn’t even come close to what I saw at that exhibit.
@julia I do not believe it’s modern but there is some confusion on iron vs bronze. I have found iron Jue labeled with the same dating as bronze but none from a resource that I would call a credible source. It also could be a mixture of alloy. There is a 1200 year time span.
I got an opinion today on the Jue. It is believed to be Zhou period. The beginning of the Chinese Iron Age. The vessel was made in the Archaic fashion but is not part of the bronze era. The quality difference is due in fact because of the melting point and consistency of the alloy. Bronze has a lower melting point which allows higher temperatures to create fine edges and details iron melts at a very high temperature the smelters top temperature achieved was not hot enough to achieve the thinning of the liquid to achieve the finer details. There are two reasons why my vessel has green corrosion due to the cast of the iron alloy was rough and a bronze finish layer was added which has higher copper percentage than the core and the impurities of the iron ore. The way I was told to distinguish the ancient vessels from the later periods is the mixing of alloys as the minerals were separated and the percentage of iron copper,zinc and removal of impurities are more refined etc on a 19th or 20th century casting the iron percentage and alloy are so refined that the presence of copper in the alloy in very low and later smelting temperature were achieved at a much higher temperature. In ancient casting the refinement of alloys did not exist like the later period which iron cast objects will contain copper zinc and lead this give the vessel a different patina then later copies.
I don't think it's iron. Early bronze alloys also often contain an amount of iron I think so such vessels will probably attract a magnet. But the size seems a little suspect to me. Usually these vessels are smaller in size.
I might be mistaken, but from this picture, it looks like there's a seam separating the bronze into two halves:
As with most other three-legged bronze forms, the molds used to cast bronze jue were typically split into thirds and not halves. Here's an example:
If this were in my hands I'd spend some time looking at the patina with a 10-30X loupe. Fake patinas are usually much more uniform than natural mineralizations.
@craig I found this comparable the description is very interesting.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4068927_440-chinese-cast-iron-wine-vessel-jue-c1000-bc
So I wanted to add some closeups of the corrosion patina I have seen a lot of fake patina pieces I own one also. This is aged patina to me but I’m aware of the fakes and masters of fakes. You can judge for yourself.
One other thing is the white powder Im finding Arsenic or something else. I here arsenic was present in Old castings.
@lotusblack I'm suspicious of this thing. Hopefully I'm wrong. Do you plan to ask Peter about it. If so keep us posted.
@johnshoe that the problem I find ugly about Asian Art everything is so faked today that everyone is suspicious about everything. I posted a piece I purchased straight from Christie’s and 8 of 10 said it’s a fake. As for Chinese bronze or castings no one on this site can really authenticate a piece by photos because I was told that fakes are so good today that only testing can validate a piece. For me it doesn’t matter if last week or 1000 years ago I’ll triple my $25 bucks either way. I’ll show my fake bronze helmet later for comparison.
I already sent it off to three people Peter is one of them. One already responded they show an owl that was case during the same time that was a close match. I’m still trying to figure out the finish coat the top layer that seals the joints no one really talks about that.
One important thing is these items were used for everyday life and burial the two factors decided how the patina was formed or how the pieces was constructed.
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