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Hey folks so I just got this and despite still being filthy I cleaned the interior and it has really brightened up, the blue is very lovely. The day light photo is a bit too blue IMO but the indoor ones are a bit yellow, haha. Wondering What you all think as far as the date, Late Ming?
Jeremy
It sure looks like someone went out if their way to add kiln grit to the foot ring and center of the bowl to make it look like an old piece of porcelain.
However, it is so poorly decorated, I’m left wondering who would take the time, but I already know there are fakers of this type.
Please tell me you didn’t spend more than $20 on this.
I’m doing a small virtual sale… I’d be happy to put some Ming minyao pieces into the sale with no reserve….I’m sure they’ll sell very reasonably.
Best,
Tim
Thanks Tim,
Paid a friend of mine $5, not too worried about it. Honestly he threw it in on top of a whopping $40 for a mahogany Georgian barometer by Adams of London. Just was wondering.
I have already checked out the estatesales link, looking forward to seeing more.
Jeremy
Zhangzhou / Swatow wares often have a load of grit or husks on the base, so that doesn't bother me of itself, just a small concern that it looks a little unnatural ie positioned, but it may be fine. I don't know enough to judge.
The style of decoration seems fine too, they were frequently poorly decorated. My main questions would be were chattermarks found on these pieces and is the colour OK- that last query could be due to photography as mentioned.
Right or wrong, I would have happily risked $5 on it. 😊
Thanks,
It does seem like a lot of grit in a strange orientation, ant that was my biggest concern. But the chatter marks are fairly common on Kraak wares. Also there seems to be a huge range of painting quality for the dishes. I just do not know enough so I defer to the experts...
Jeremy
Here is one from Brian Page that has some kiln grit and chatter marks, and the painting I think would fall into a lesser category.
Hi Jeremy -
Concur with Xin, know type of late Ming/very early Qing kraak dish ...
Attached images for comparison:-
1, five small dishes, D. 15-20cm, decorated in similar style, exhibited at National Museum, Singapore, April 1978 ...
2, middle two dishes, again with similar decoration, recovered from the Hatcher Junk, cargo dated to 1643-46 ...
Such dishes were produced in huge numbers and the quality of the clay, painting, glaze, potting and finishing varied considerably ...
Stuart
Stuart,
Thank you for the reference pictures. Very happy with it.
Cleaned up it is very pretty.
Jeremy
Well done for getting it. I am really pleased for you. I think it is lovely and am glad you asked about it as now I know for sure that Kraak wares can also have loads of grit on them like Swatow pieces and that chattermarks are fine, too. 😊
I don’t really understand why anyone would fake this type of Kraak ware, and I respect the opinions of Xin and Stuart. However, a quick search, sure enough there are online articles on fake Kaak wares - this is one such example.
The kiln grit is just too evenly placed, and the weird pile in the center defies logic.
Imagine holding a fistful of grit/sand, then letting it pour out slowly out of the bottom of your fist. It makes a pile, just like the one at the bottom center of this plate.
The plate was fired right side up on its foot, right? Why would the grit form in a pile?
Certainly some grit naturally bonds to the slip along the foot ring, and sure, a few grains (and even patches of sand) stick to the bottom. But a perfectly centered pile in the middle?
Anyway… I’m curious if the plate sits flatly on a table, or if the pile of grit is so high on the underside that it sits off kilter.
Should look like this…
Dear Greeno,
it is not a fake, it is ok as said by Xin, and on top of that it is a rare one.
Kraak ware was made for export, it has been a massive production, and the need of satisfying the great demand had the consequence of lowering the quality.
Luckily, not all them. Kraak ware can be found in a wide range of qualities, ranging from the really fine ones to the low-grade ones.
Why is this dish rare? I was joking, it is rare to find them with a so low quality😊.
But keep in mind that the fine ones are really attractive. One must handle them to believe.
Now, about your doubts.
The first one, about why would it be faked, that it has already been told to you. EVERYTHING is faked, including very cheap items.
Then, about the grit at the middle. As said, these were mass produced, not particular care was taken. Then you can well understand that the bed of kiln grits was not necessarily have been perfectly flat.
But even if it was well flat, which is the next part of the dish that could reach the bed of grits, after the foot? Exactly the center of the base, because during firing the bottom start to collapse a bit, becoming concave.
Then it is perfectly justified, much more than what we see on the back of the dish linked by Jeremy, see here below. You can see that the grits touched the dish exactly on the less probable areas, both sides near the foot which is the highest part.
That means that the bed was not flat.
Hence, nothing strange here, and most of all, nothing enough for saying that it is a fake.
Regards,
Giovanni
I learn so much when Greeno and Giovanni disagree. By all means, you two, please keep arguing about things for many years to come. Cheers! John
Jeremy did you say you paid $5 bucks?
When I first saw this post I immediately thought Ming swattow, although the design is in. Kraak style. I thought this do to the poor quality of the bowl. I found it hard to believe that the Dutch would put so much effort transporting inferior wares. But what Giovanni explains makes sense knowing the demand for porcelain at that time was so great that any thing could be sold as long as it was from China and made of porcelain. I think we are used to seeing much better quality in Kraak wares that we forget they were not all perfect.
Jeramy, only $5 off of a friend, does he have any more and does he need a new friend?
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