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I picked up this plate today and I think it's a transitional period provintial example, but this is an area I have little experience with, so I invite your thoughts. Have I transitioned or haven't I? John
I see this design everyday in the swaps and flea markets. But I have never seen an original I hope yours is it. Is the red underglazed?
I think it is late 19th century, I have had a few, though I cannot tell the difference between 19th and 20th pieces too well, and I think they are still made... The destination in age is determined by the complexity and quality of the painting, I think.
Jeremy
One that I currently have..
The red is underglaze. Not sure if this is a clue or not, but you can see the turning lines on the surface. Here's a couple shots that might show it sort of.
.
@jbeer2121 I'm glad you posted pictures of yours. I can see some differences which lead me to suspect mine is older. The cobalt on mine is much stronger. The style of painting seems more confident. The base looks older. Does the bottom of yours have a sandy feel? And can you see turn lines on the top? Also, it looks as though the rim on yours has a little lip, is that correct? Also, the side wall slope on yours seems more rounded, and the foot rim looks like it comes down at more of a right angle than a gradual slope compared to mine. But it is hard to tell for sure by the pictures. If possible, could you post a close up of the outside footrim angle that also shows a little of the base in the perspective so I can better gauge the angle on yours for comparrison?
@jbeer2121 One more question I have for you is whether or not the blue is thick in areas on yours? On mine, they really put it on thick to the point that it is lumpy feeling in places. Not sure if that means it would be older or newer, but they definitely didn't skimp on the blue when they made this one.
The fish plate is a widespread Kitchen Qing design from the 19th century and is still made today. It derives from Ming fish plates.
As Jeremy said the older ones are a bit more elaborately painted (especially the water weed border) Glaze or foot differences appear as these were churned out in huge amounts by different workshops.
Birgit
@shinigami Thanks for the info. It appears I have yet to transition....
Dear John,
it would be interesting to know the reasons that lead you to suppose that it could be Transitional.
Can you explain?
Regards,
Giovanni
@clayandbrush It was only because when I did a search for ming fish plate I saw several examples similar to mine that had been auctioned as transitional. Apparently from what is being said here those were not properly identified, which of course happens all the time.
Dear John,
my question is meant to help you on how to look at things.
You say that you ahve seen similar Ming or Transitioanl fishes? I am sure not, I ahve never seen a similar Ming fish. There is a huge difference.
This type os 19th, and still made today as correctly said by Birgit, dishes is well known and common. It is very typical, that fish is always made in that way, sometimes with the copper underglaze red and soemtimes not. Sometimes with unglazed base, sometimes glazed.
Often with etched the owner's name.
Ming fishes too are very typical, but in another way. You could search for ming fishes, and you will see that especially those on dishes are quite different. Especially, more lively although less detailed.
Regards,
Giovanni
Here’s a Ming fish, similar to the left picture in the book. I love the grumpy expression.
Birgit
@shinigami Yes, I see that the Ming fish expressions are very sour on life. Perhaps it is that they knew that they were destined for the frying pan. Poor fishies.
@clayandbrush It is good to learn that these are always 19th to modern examples. Sadly, until we learn these things, we can fall prey to false advertising because we don't yet know. You will see what I mean if you do a google search for "Ming plate with fish". You will see several like mine pop up being falsely advertised that sold as such. That is why I thought it could be transitional. Now I know better thanks to all of you guys.
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