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I am wanting to sell this little box soon. Has a Ming look but might be later. Maybe Kangxi? Thanks guys for any input.
Brian, I would suggest not Ming but could not argue against it being Kangxi. I think this due to the whiteness of the paste and lack of oxide ring from the kiln. The decoration I think is a Ming style and the impurities could suggest Ming but the tint of the glaze and the paste throw me off. Let’s see what the smart folks hav to say.
Ron
@ronm thanks Ron I do notice this design element in Kangxi porcelain. Maybe even transition period.
Hi Brian -
Painting style indicates not Ming ...
As Ron correctly implies the glaze, which lacks the so called ‘duck egg blue’ tone, appears very ‘white’ and may indicate a rather later dating, although this be the image quality and/or lighting conditions ...
If possible, could you post images of the interior of the box and cover? ...
Stuart
@ming1449 , Stewart, the paint style is not Ming. What gives it away? is it the flower motifs and the extra detail in the painting? I saw the technique a free flowing, painted in haste but with the skill that comes with repetition also some of the elements have a vague outline while others just a brush stroke.
Ron
Hi Ron and Brian -
Brian, thank you for the additional interior images ...
Ron, to try and explain, probably not very well, the differences in painting styles please see attached images of the following:-
Images 1/2:- two tall gu vases, H. 36.4/38.6cm, parts of the composition decorated with so called ‘floating branches/flower sprays’ designs. These two vases, both Chongzhen period, provide a good example of the differing painting quality of such wares produced during this period, the first undoubtedly finer, but the painting ‘style’ is similar on both pieces. Tianjin Museum collection ...
Image 3:- Ovoid jar/cover, H. 32cm, overall decoration of ‘floating branches/butterflies’, many similar pieces with various designs were produced for export to Europe. Chongzhen/early Shunzhi periods ...
Images 4/5/6:- All of these pieces were excavated from the so called Hatcher junk, the cargo of which has been dated to between 1643-46, so very late Chongzhen/very early Shunzhi. Included to show the differing painting quality of the ‘floating branches/flower spray designs’ on different vessel shapes ...
This design seem to have continued into the mid Kangxi period, so 1676-1700 but even by then, the painting style had already changed. It was, probably, part of the decoration used during the late 19thC Kangxi revival but again, the painting style would be totally different ...
The painting style on this box/cover is drawn very differently then those seen on know late Ming/early Qing examples above. Also, as mentioned and confirmed by the interior images, the glaze is very white, lacking the blueish tinge present on such wares ...
But just my opinion, and I could well be wrong ...
If Giovanni@clayandbrush looks in and sees this thread he may wish to comment ...
Stuart
@ming1449 thanks Stuart and Ron. I did want to mention that this box does have edge fritting and glaze burning on the edges my understanding is this was a issue in the kiln prior to the 19th century is this correct information? Here is a picture thanks again.
Hi Brian -
I am not a potter but my understanding regarding this is as follows:-
The clay used at the Jingdezhen kilns, both Imperial and private, contains traces of iron oxide impurities. During the firing this produces the orange-brown line/tinge where the unglazed body meets the glaze, also seen on unglazed bases ...
With very few exceptions ie: certain Imperial wares fired during the Chenghua period when the preparation/refinement process of the clay was exceptionally high, it was not until the mid/late 17thC that this iron oxide was ‘leeched out’ during the preparation/refining process and the unglazed bases from this time do not exhibit the orange-brown staining although a slight yellowing tinge may still be present, particularly where the unglazed body meets the glaze ...
For the same reasons above, during the firing these impurities affected the glaze and gave it a slightly bluish tinge. In different kiln sites during the early/mid 11thC this bluish tone was not deliberately cultivated but by the end of that century it became very popular and was actively sought. This was to remain so until the 19thC when it was eliminated and, in consequence, the white glaze of blue and white pieces appears ‘very white or greyish’ ...
I do, as always, stand to be corrected but hope the above is of some help ...
Stuart
Stewart,thank you for the education, I see a difference in technique in the use of empty space in the details to bring out distinction between the painted elements. To be clearer, I noticed the empty space seperating the petals of the flowers and to delineate the halves of the leaf or the suggestion of reflection on the leaf. Were as on Brian’s box there is no empty space doing the same job visually.
I certainly hope this is the point of your lesson. If not, I shall rethink your lesson.
Brian, given the information gleaned from your box I would seem to be as Stewart suggests a Victorian revival peice, the imperfection in the paste and the painting meant to imitate a late Ming transitional box. And I have learned some thing new today.
Ron
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