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Thank for the close ups after viewing the mark my opinion is this mark is not a make and period mark. There are to many discrepancies. A true Qainlong period piece would not have errors in the mark it would be destroyed. The artist that mark these pieces did this their entire life it would be hard to except that on this day they would not only write the mark in incorrectly but change the entire structure. This is just my opinion. I have seen these pieces before several times in Reading PA they where attribute to first half of 20th century. And priced around $1500 retail so you still come out ahead.
Dear Tom,
first at all forget the word “Imperial”. It is not the mark that qualify an item as being imperial.
Said that, I am pretty sure that you have a 19th century vase. May be even early 19th, can’t say by the pictures, but anyway 19th century.
There are only a very few pictures that are well readable, and none of them are showing the border of the glaze at the foot; despite that, I am convinced that the border of the glaze has been trimmed. Can you confirm that?
Regards,
Giovanni
@lotusblack Thanks for taking an interest Brian and Giovanni,
Brian,
thanks good to know I'm not going to loose money.. I don't know anything about Chinese marks, but looking at the examples from Flambe vases that have been authenticated by Christie's etc, they seem to be pretty messy and have parts missing. Also there appears to be different versions of the qianlong mark, I've made some screen shots, mostly flambe but all imperial marks from Christies etc, my vase mark is not pictured in these photos. They seem to vary a lot to my eye, but I don't speak Chinese, so my understanding is limited.
Giovanni,
Thanks again for your interest, I've taken some more shots of the foot, (attached). It looks like its been cut to me. I've also attached some close up pictures of the foot of a qianlong flambe vase sold at christies...(the one where the vase is resting on a white desk is the christies vase, to others are photos of the foot of the vase I have).
Dear Tom,
very blurred pictures but it is clear that, as I supposed, the glaze border and foot has been filed. That is typical of 19th century vases of this type.
If I can give you a suggestion, forget the mark, do not spend time about that. I never look to the marks. An item, in my view, must be let say 18th century or not, and it is surely not the mark that will decide that.
Giovanni
Thanks Giovanni,
As I understand from Peters videos, a foot like this, neatly cut with a snow white colour, is an 18th century vase?
If you compare it to the photos of the foot in the last attachments, it looks identical to the imperial foot attached. It's confusing as the colour is very similar to the vase I have, but the photo is of an imperial foot / mark (the vase sitting on a white table top)
@clayandbrush here's a comparison.
this link is to the foot of an imperial 18th flambe vase qianlong. It looks identical to the foot of the vase I have. I've attached screenshots of the christies vase in this link (and my vase)
Dear Tom,
your vase is 19th century, and I would not put my hand on the fire in claiming that the Christie’s one is 18th century.
The foot of that vase too has been filed, and that is not normal for 18th century vases. Absolutely not. Where has it been filed? At the factory or elsewhere? Who knows.
I insist in saying that the use of the word Imperial is not proper here. Note that Christie’s too is not clearly saying that their vase is imperial. They make a lot of talk about the reproduction of Jun glazes at Imperial kilns, bla bla bla etc etc but they do not say that it is all referred to the vase in question. A lot of bla bla for “gilding the lily”. Very eBay style. Note that it has been sold at an online auction, where they sell things that are below their quality level for the auctions in their rooms. It reached that price because of the name; prices at auctions can’t be taken for reference, so many variables there.
I bet that if auctioned today, that vase will surely sell for much less than the price it has been sold.
Giovanni
PS: as for what you understood from Peter’s videos, “neatly cut” is not the same than “filed”. Your vase has been clearly filed. I doubt that Peter took a filed foot as a typical example for 18th century.
Thanks Giovanni, Here are some clearer shots of the foot, just to be sure. It looks cut to me, I don't see any traces of filling.. The line between the glaze and foot is seamless. But I'm not experienced in these vases, so I don't know exactly what I'm looking for, how can you tell it's been filled?
thanks in advance,
Tom
Your last set of pictures clearly show what Giovanni is trying to describe to you. Notice how the glaze goes from shiny to dull color. That dull red area is where the glaze was mechanically ground off of the foot rim. Take a look at the attached photo and notice how the shiny red glaze rolls to a neat stop at the edge of the foot rim. This photo is from a Kangxi bowl in my collection. In the 19th century, Chinese potters lost the ability to control the flow of this particular glaze so that it would not run over the foot rim.
@william Bill, was it just particular colors of glazes this issue pertained to or was it across the board?
Dear Tom,
I never said “filled”😊.
I said “filed” which is completely different.
The glaze is not ending naturally to the edge, the glaze has been “cut”. William explained it perfectly.
If you look straight perpendicularly to the surface of the “cut”, you can see through the glaze because the edge is missing the “skin” of the glaze.
The foot of the item shown by William is of the type described by Peter as having been cut; instead the foot of your vase has been filed together with the glaze edge. No step between them.
Instead I have not understood what John is asking. To which glaze is referring not what board. Which board?
Regards
Giovanni
Hello again, Sorry if this is getting tedious, but I can't ignore the 18th century flambe vases sold at Christie's that have clearly been cut in the same way. You can see in these photos, the glaze has been cut, leaving a matte finish. These are all 18th century according to Christies:
They state in descriptions : "This dedication to the accurate recreation of Song dynasty glazes on porcelain continued well into the Qianlong period, when the present vase was made, and into succesive reign periods thereafter"
quote is from the first link below:
@clayandbrush Sorry for the confusion - "across the board" is just a figure of speech that means something applies in all similar cases. I was just asking if the 19th C potters had issues with controlling all glazes or if it was just certain colors and types such as the flambe, etc?
@thomasumjohnson I too find this a bit confusing. I was looking at Sotheby's examples and noticing the same issue. Some looking filed and some didn't, but all were being attributed to the 18th C. and being mark and period. I also noticed some did not sell and there is a wide price range between the different examples.
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