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Hi Kaitlin, nice that you have joined us.
I agree with a mid to late 19th c date for your plate. The base, border are very much of that period and the style of butterfly don't make me think Ming although the overall looser, washed in, drawing style is more so than Charles' plate. The butterflies are slightly different to Charles' plate, too but that could help you narrow down the date.
Thank you all for weighing in. I really loved the looseness of the figures and, like @Greeno107 pointed out, the calligraphic style of the details. With that said, I also fully expected to be told that this was a modern reproduction. It's nice to know that it's not. 🙂
I found one more example of this design being used on a plate on another site, which someone dated to the early 20th century:
I’m inclined to think this is still 20th century Peter has mentioned that transitional wares are being faked so good people can’t tell the difference I see many elements of different time periods. The pictures are not showing the entire story. The potter rushed the potting of the plate I can see the groves of the coiling where is the wear to this 400 year old plate? Does anyone have a legit comparison? I have personally seen copies with this same form. But maybe with closer photos and better lighting I could get a better assessment.
@cannoli -
Hi Kaitlin - and welcome to this wonderful forum ...
An interesting piece, but not late Ming, Transitional or Kangxi period, IMO ...
The upright T shape border motif is, as far as I recall, not seen until the mid 17th century, so around 1650, and examples in both blue and white and different enamels are known. The drawing style is, however, very different ...
Personally, I have never seen a transitional, or indeed Kangxi piece, where this border design is paired with inward facing bats, and it is very rarely depicted in white reserved against a blue ground during these periods ...
I will check library/database and revert if anything found
Whether this is a 19th or 20th century piece, as others have suggested, I lack the knowledge to say ...
Stuart
@lotusblack I'll see if I can get better photos tomorrow. Today was too dark and rainy! 🙂
this discussion is another excellent one. after looking at the evidences presented thus far, i could be persuaded for late late ming. the reason i rejected the idea initially was because i thought that the heaping and piling was fake, yet i did not have good images for it, and the foot rim seemed very 19th C to me. in no way can i see 20th c. or later.
so if the poster could publish a really good close-up of the heaping and piling, that would help. but ultimately i think artistic considerations will prevail. was heaping and piling still "a thing" in late ming? i remember the 18th c. qing became quite adept at faking it.
Hi Kaitlin, Tony and all -
The ‘heaping/piling’ effect, so often seen on early Ming wares had been eliminated from wares produced at the Imperial kilns by the mid/late Chenghua period, around 1470’s, and in the private kilns by the early/mid Zhengde, so 1510/15, at the latest …
This was due to the type of cobalt used and great improvements made in the grinding/refinement of such, first by the Imperial workers during Chenghua and in the private workshops from very late Hongzhi/early Zhengde periods …
It is unknown on late Ming, Transitional and Kangxi pieces, each of which has its own, and quite distinctive, painting styles, cobalt tones and shading techniques …
As always, some ‘overlap’ in such painting, shading and cobalt tones must be allowed between these differing periods …
Stuart
Hi Kaitlin, Welcome! Thanks for sharing your lovely plate. Although I've only been collecting for a few years, I thought I would chime in.
I agree with those who think it's 19th century mainly because of the shape of the plate and lack of fritting on the rim.
For comparison, here are a copule of plates that Peter appraised as late 19th c. Although the pattern is different & the foot rim doesn't have the grit that yours does, the shape of the body and the thin rim without fritting seem to match.
Anyway, my two cents.
Regards,
Steve
Hi Kaitlin, Tony and all -
The ‘heaping/piling’ effect, so often seen on early Ming wares had been eliminated from wares produced at the Imperial kilns by the mid/late Chenghua period, around 1470’s, and in the private kilns by the early/mid Zhengde, so 1510/15, at the latest …
This was due to the type of cobalt used and great improvements made in the grinding/refinement of such, first by the Imperial workers during Chenghua and in the private workshops from very late Hongzhi/early Zhengde periods …
It is unknown on late Ming, Transitional and Kangxi pieces, each of which has its own, and quite distinctive, painting styles, cobalt tones and shading techniques …
As always, some ‘overlap’ in such painting, shading and cobalt tones must be allowed between these differing periods …
Stuart
thank you - so the heaping and piling in the plate would be contrived and as such probably puts me my back to my original assessment because i don't think that late ming or transitional wares would create heaping and piling for nostalgic reasons.
Kaitlin,
I see the debate is raging.... Just my toss in, I think this is mid to late 19th century(1840-70) Chinese, possibly for the Japanese market. These seem to come up occasionally on Yahoo auctions, so I think that was their intended audience. the "Canton" foot as others have pointed out is in fact of the period. Just running on my own and seeing the things that turn up in Japan I think this was intended for their market. A beautiful plate nonetheless... very nicely drawn, and don't read too much into the way the glaze floats and "piles" Steve's (@steve ) example is stunning, and I think yours holds a torch next to it, however the rushed work of the figures seem just that, rushed...his also displays this nice electric blue that I expect.....
Lovely plate and I hope others put us one the right path of knowing and dating this.
Jeremy
Ok, here are some pictures of the plate that were taken outside. Apologies for fingerprints, glare, etc.
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