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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7257
22/08/2021 12:10 pm  

 Seeing the whole foot, you may be correct it might be late Meiji but I just feel the vase is pushing boundaries, if that makes sense?

The base doesn't make me think Kutani but there is certainly something of Satsuma about the vase, but without the opulence - I feel we are invited to compare the golden top and the idyllic background with the reality of everyday life for ordinary people.  I love it!   I can't wait to see the other. 

I also hope Mark's friend can give us more info.


   
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4524
22/08/2021 2:55 pm  

@julia JRN's post from 12/05/2020, contained a link that no longer works but he mentioned in the post to just type Stylish Satsuma Style And Design of Satsuma Ware into your search engine and it should turn up. I remember the pieces featured some domestic farm scenes juxtaposed with fancy Satsuma trim.


   
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4524
22/08/2021 3:16 pm  

It worked by typing into search, there is also a section on porcelain similarly decorated. The barrel jar with the rural domestic scene was by Kinkozan. Fun to look at if nothing else, hopefully Mark's friend will know exactly. Sharon


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
Topic starter 22/08/2021 4:16 pm  

Here’s the other vase.

2C6A46AD E4C6 4E40 AA3B CA1776A824B8
5FDA8DEA C5E3 4F20 B793 EAB07EADAEC1
98A83030 C235 40EA A3E0 0FA5E3CDE507

   
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Short Dong
 Short Dong
(@short-dong)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1546
22/08/2021 4:52 pm  
Posted by: @sharonp

@julia JRN's post from 12/05/2020, contained a link that no longer works but he mentioned in the post to just type Stylish Satsuma Style And Design of Satsuma Ware into your search engine and it should turn up. I remember the pieces featured some domestic farm scenes juxtaposed with fancy Satsuma 


   
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Short Dong
 Short Dong
(@short-dong)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1546
22/08/2021 4:57 pm  

@julia  That search criteria worled for me and to my surprise I found Marks Kinkozan serpent vase whic if this article is right is by Kozan. 

 

download   2021 08 22T215544.866
download   2021 08 22T215605.034

 

 


   
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Short Dong
 Short Dong
(@short-dong)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1546
22/08/2021 5:00 pm  
Posted by: @greeno107

Here’s the other vase.

2C6A46AD E4C6 4E40 AA3B CA1776A824B8
5FDA8DEA C5E3 4F20 B793 EAB07EADAEC1
98A83030 C235 40EA A3E0 0FA5E3CDE507

Superb 🙂 You are very  lucky. They are masterpeices on porcelain. Like japanese Sevres. I think they would be more satsuma than kutani. Satsuma has more range than Kutani. Maybe they are kaga kutani/satsuma.

I think I have seen something like this, but it was at an auction and it was equally stunning, described as Kinkozan if i recall.


   
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Short Dong
 Short Dong
(@short-dong)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1546
22/08/2021 5:20 pm  

Someone mentioned Nikko. I think it is also possible. 

 

As part of our Japanese works of art collection we are delighted to offer this finely painted Meiji period 1868-1912 Satsuma vase in the manner of Kinkozan but signed Nikko , the cobalt blue gilt decorated borders are very finely executed and very much in the style of fine Kinkozan artists , the first of the two main panels depict Bijin and Children in a tranquil garden setting , the reverse depicts Samurai warriors at rest in a woodland scene , once again both panels painted in exquisite detail and reminiscent of the style of Kinkozan artist , Nikko is recorded as being a retailer of ceramics in Nagasaki and may well have commissioned this piece, whoever painted it it is certainly a fine example of Meiji period Satsuma wares that due to some minor gilt rubbing now falls into a budget that may add to or inspire the start of a future collection of Japanese ceramics .

 

12
14
download   2021 08 22T221612.466

   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
Topic starter 22/08/2021 9:06 pm  

@short-dong I’m glad to see you appreciate them the way I do.

Now the trick is to get them home 3000 miles with out them getting broken.  Double boxing and express shipping…. Not cheap but absolutely necessary.


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
Topic starter 22/08/2021 10:11 pm  

@short-dong BTW I like the Sevres comparison.  I was thinking they are quite like German KPM plaques which are so very detailed. 


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7257
23/08/2021 2:17 am  

The way the people are painted differs from typical Satsuma, which tends to be very ornate and very traditional in style. I did find a couple of pieces which had slightly similar faces, though but only one was Satsuma and the other a painting, both Meiji before 1900.

There are two reasons I feel these vases differ from traditional Satsuma.  First,  the figures seem to be drawn in a very western way (yes, like KPM); there seems to be traces of western painting styles like Naturalism and Realism and the people remind me of characters in impressionist paintings in the way they look directly at you and engage with you. That all points to a slightly earlier period but I am looking atminfluences not a distinct style.

The second point is that Satsuma pieces don't tend to depict "peasants" even if they show rural landscapes.  Here, I get the impression that there is something "völkisch" about the style. It is something about the way the workers are depicted ie not downtrodden, but happy and healthy-looking in decent clothes; and also the possible interpretations of that with the other elements of the decoration, the golden sky, idyllic setting etc. It is almost a fascist feeling. 

Admittedly that could all be nothing more than my imagination! It is just what I see. By the way Dave, it was me who said Nikko. I thought that the second line of the mark might say Nikko made..


   
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7080
23/08/2021 12:06 pm  

@Greeno107,

Hi Dave,

Julia is the winner here! 🥇

My friend Martin Michels from japantiek responded with the following:

Screenshot 20210824 012836

As he was unable to decipher the full context he recommended I. Nagy who is a regular on www.asianart.com

Regards my friend,

Mark 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
Topic starter 23/08/2021 12:52 pm  

@imperialfinegems Thanks Mark, and everyone for all the great input.

I’ll see if I can get a full translation on Asianart.com Forum.  

I also reached out to a client I know in Japan who owns a Makuzu Kozan museum for help on the translation, but he’s often a bit slow to respond.

So, as Nikko ware, that would make the vases satsuma?

I did a quick look… the borders of my vases look similar to Nikko pieces sold at Bonhams. But, overall rendering remains unlike any Japanese work I’ve seen so far.

 


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
23/08/2021 1:05 pm  

@greeno107 

Tim,

Thank you for your offer before, I very much appreciate it.  Unfortunately the paintings were not what I'd hoped. 

You certainly did well, and I hope we get to see these tables on here eventually. 

I love the hyper-realism on the vases as well.

Jeremy


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7257
23/08/2021 1:51 pm  

I think Nikko did Satsuma-style as you can see on your vases in so far as there is the gold and the muted colours, maybe the pastoral areas too, but as for the people, that strikes me as being very different as you know.

I mentioned earlier that I have seen one piece of satsuma with that kind of face (but the rest was more traditional) and one painting from 1899 which has a similarity.

If I can find them again, I will post them.

 


   
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