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Sorry I have to go to work now so I didn’t have the time to follow the whole thread. I just like to say about the initially shown piece that the faces are typical for late 18th/early 19th century. Nothing to do with Rose medallion or Rose mandarin yet. I like the boat scene and would say it’s high quality Jiaqing export.
Birgit
Wow, that is lovely, John! Sorry, I am late to this (timezones) and having read the thread, my feeling is that talk of rose medallion/mandarin is distracting. Even though the bowl shows a continuation of the Qianlong style of export wares it is not what I would see as part of the typical style of those Canton wares. I may be missing something from the conversation, or just generally, but it wouldn't occur to me to use those terms in relation to this bowl.
I think it is lovely. I am on a small screen, but the painting looks to be exceptionally well done and I can see it being from that period. Admittedly the mark needs explaining. It has to be either unusual or wrong. So for me it is either of the period or an exceptionally good fake, but why the mark where a mark should not be. I suspect, hope it is Jiaqing.
Hey Tim! I apologize - you are right. I believe we are disagreeing on the semantics and have departed from the thrust of the thread. You make a great point that we've all learned within our areas of interest from different people and sources.
Having gone back to "The Canton Famille Rose Porcelains" by Dr. John Feller this morning, I can see where you're coming from. Dr. Feller refers to "Canton famille rose" as all 19th-century patterns as a group. I've been referring to this generally by its time period instead - in my second response to Brian at the beginning I mentioned the central scene being found sometimes on 19th-century pieces, so I really meant Canton famille rose rather than Rose Medallion.
Also, Daniel Nadler also made the point in "China to Order" that "there are endless variations on the 'Rose Medallion' theme", and that "various attempts have been made to separate the categories and to include some new labels, such as 'Rose Canton'. But there are too many improvisations." I might have to agree now.
I appreciate the back and forth, and especially your observation that the enamels are so washed out. It is an interesting one I've not noticed and can only hope it's due to overexposure. I'll post an update in this thread with a properly white-balanced photo once it comes in 😀
I agree! It'll be fun to talk about the history behind the Hongs and the China trade even if it might not be from the period. I am completely enamored by the scene as many Western traders were.
Thank you, Birgit! I appreciate you taking a look before work 😊
I posted the photos of the exterior and base in post #7 at 5:16 pm on the first page. It's the source of most of the disagreement on this bowl, and I put them in "spoiler mode". I wanted to stagger the photos this time. Would you let me know what you think after seeing those, too?
Thank you, Julia! No worries, it's never too late for the party!
I think you've identified my exact point of confusion on this piece. I admit, I did send this bowl to Peter, but he only looked at the mark and talked about why it shouldn't be there. I wish he talked about the enamels/execution, but it's what pushed me to stagger the photos this way.
It's reassuring that you also agree that the painting is well-done and plausibly early 19th century! Since my area of interest in Chinese porcelain is solely Chinese export, I know very little about marks and why or when they should be present. It's also why I usually look at the piece first before the base, and why I am unhappy making a conclusion solely on the mark.
I agree! I was definitely reminded of John's Seton armorial reticulated basket, and it's one of the few with the general Sampan scene that I was able to find. I'll try to compile a list of pieces with this scene.
@bartholin Did you ever find out what the script around the rim and above the door says?
I was just thinking about the flags and realised the British flag on your bowl should help discard a date before 1801. if you look at the bowl brian posted, that has the older version of the flag.
Maybe you can check to see if the US flag helps with dating? Of course, you may already have done so. 😊
Ok I have to say I saw this base and foot before. It was a republic period vase it got big bucks at auction.
Thanks, Brian! That'd throw a wrench in my whole idea of extremely modern and recent vs. early 19th-century. I'll take more photos once it comes in with other angles. I just wish they added more photos of the base.
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