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@lotusblack That would be such an interesting thought! One question I had while thinking about this piece was "Why the Jiaqing mark?" considering all Hong bowls are Qianlong. If there was an intent to fool, I'd think they'd put a Qianlong mark or none at all, but then I would fall into a dangerous presumption of authenticity.
Ah, interesting.
If I came across this browsing I would note the following as red flags: the inclusion of national flags, the mark, the military theme with the fort, and the inclusion of Chinese script. The mark and script I don't think I've seen on famile rose exports before. Taken together, these would suggest an attempt to sweeten the piece as much as possible.
When I was a wee novice just starting out (OK, just a couple of years ago!) I purchased a late 20th c. platter that was posing as an export with a ship; it had a rather convincing orange peel surface. (It arrived broken so I ended up paying nothing and now it is repaired and graces my kitchen wall, high up.)
Interesting! I didn't see the national flags, or fort problematic because it is a scene I've been hunting for. The flags are for the "Hongs at Canton", which were national factories where each nations' China trade merchants would operate from. The fort is the Dutch Folly fort on the Pearl River just outside of the Hongs at Canton, which was usually depicted in the Hongs at Canton bowls. Here's a genuine 18th century one:
https://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/959642
I wonder if this bowl pulled from the "landscape" Jiaqing marked bowls with Chinese script floating and merged it with the "Hongs at Canton" scene? The copies/fakes that are unique and don't attempt to copy every single element are the ones that throw me off the most.
By the way, I'd love to see that 20th c. platter if you have a photo 😀
After seeing the exterior I have seen this before I think it’s a Hong bowl. I saw one in a museum way back in the day.
My post came in late.
https://oss.adm.ntu.edu.sg/haiyen001/team-1-contextual-research-hong-bowl/
Bill Harding, of some fame on Asianart.com, is quite knowledgeable about Chinese porcelain, especially rose medallion.
It is my understanding that ‘Rose Mandarin’, what I call Mandarin, is strictly a late 18th c. export porcelain ware - NEVER marked with a reign mark.
Rose Medallion is derived from Canton Famille rose wares of the early 19th c., but is distinct in having rose, fruit, and or butterfly border patterns. As export ware, it NEVER has a genuine reign mark.
If I recall correctly, Bill dates the first pieces of Rose Medallion to 1850.
The chance of a clobbered Mandarin piece would be unusual, but not impossible.
However, a bowl with such elaborate decoration would have been exported for a lot of money to a European, so little to no chance of being clobbered.
Yes, there are some great fakes of 18th c. export wares- I believe I’ve argued this point with a few other members who felt their bowls were genuine.
Again, we are right back to what has been mentioned twice before recently - you need to see the whole piece to determine authenticity.
Secondly, if a design deviates from the style for the period it is marked, we should at least presume it is not of the period, and most likely a fake.
Very interesting!
My book on Chinese export porcelain dates the beginning of Rose Medallion to 1860, which is later than I thought.
Yes! Sorry - I forgot to mention that earlier. I've been hunting for a "Hongs at Canton" bowl, and the fakes are usually really obvious. This one obviously threw me. There are a couple of categories of fakes that I've seen. This one didn't fit nicely in these three categories so I got hopeful:
- Mottahedeh Company
- Transferprinted B/W
- Poorly rendered polychrome enamel copies
Good to know!
I guess I assumed real export bowls with such scenes as on Hong bowls are so rare that they would be a prime choice for fakers.
Here is the platter. It's a deep-dish platter of a shape that I don't think they ever made back in the day they are evoking. (Excuse the dust.) Close inspection reveals that it is transfer using rubber patterns, probably from the 1980s.
Hey Tim,
While I agree with the end conclusion, I do want to clarify that the mandarin palette is a separate concept from "Rose Mandarin":
While the earliest "Rose Medallion" might date to 1850/1860, generic central Sampan scenes can be found on Jiaqing period pieces as well. It's not a scene typically associated with Rose Medallion at all and appears earlier rather than later. When I said "the central sampan scene is sometimes found on 19th-century pieces", I did not mean an exact scene as all of them seem to be a little different. Off the top of my head, there's the Seton armorial Sampan scene which dates to the Jiaqing period for example. So in my mind - correct me if I'm wrong - the temporally-last element on the bowl is the central Sampan scene, which can date to the Jiaqing period. The Hongs at Canton, although bowls were only made during the Qianlong period, continued to be used throughout the Jiaqing period until they burned in the great fire in 1822.
To further clarify, I don't think it's 18th c. at all, rather I was hoping (a bit overly optimistic maybe) it'd be early 19th century which I think the central scene is consistent with. It is either that or extremely recent within the last 15 years.
That leaves the mark which makes it 100% modern, though, but I'm unhappy with relying on solely the mark for that conclusion, which we've also discussed here. Can we think of examples of export pieces that are marked? While its rare, it's not unheard of - I can think of the Qianlong M/P vases supported by Dutchmen for example.
I apologize for pushing this so much, by the way. I just haven't seen a copy with this high level of execution, and I can only hope that fakes aren't being produced with this level of execution on the export side. I've posted a number of topics showing fake export pieces coming out of China, and one could judge every single one of them solely on their enameling. My hesitation with saying this one is definitely fake is because absent the mark, I can't tell at all. We've talked on the forum about the way a piece "feels" or how the design "flows", which I'm having trouble with still.
Hey Steve,
I've seen those before! I've been tempted to get one since they're very decorative and everyone loves ships. It's an interesting design, and I think it's pulled directly from a famous service that actually names the ship in an inscription. The design inspiration for your piece is from 1756, and the ship is an East Indiaman named Vryburg. Here's one:
@bartholin This thing needs to hurry up and get into your hands so we can see what it really is.
I honestly think modern or not it’s a great conversation piece
Hey Tim,
While I agree with the end conclusion, I do want to clarify that the mandarin palette is a separate concept from "Rose Mandarin":
I think I did say that earlier, maybe we just disagree on semantics... here's what I said earlier - "Rose Medallion is derived from Canton Famille rose wares of the early 19th c., but is distinct in having rose, fruit, and or butterfly border patterns."
As for Mandarin wares, they are entirely different than both Canton famille rose and Rose Medallion - I would never conflate these styles.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say it is a 'seperate concept', because the same artists in Canton were responsible for both styles, and once Rose Medallion was introduced, Canton famille rose simply disappeared (except on enamel ware). Can you show me a post 1850 example of what you call Rose Canton? I don't think there are any.
As for the terminology, I didn't learn this area of study from Peter, so my terms are slightly different. Here's how I would equate my terms with those you are familiar with:
Rose Mandarin = Mandarin ware
Rose Canton = Canton famille rose
Rose Medallion = Rose Medallion
Now, in looking over my earlier comments, I did say the boat scene was 'rose medallion' when it might be better descrived as Canton famille rose. Well, with respect to the subject matter, I do agree it is Canton Famille Rose, but the enamels are so washed out, it speaks of the less expense methods employed once rose medallion took over the production in Canton.
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