Hi, lovely vases, I think this is famille rose / rose medallion, as there are no pinks in famille verte! 😀 They are very very lovely, amazing details!

And 19th c. seems right, maybe early to mid?

I bought Tommy Eklof's book based on the recommendation from this group and also thought 1800-1830.  I didn't realize Famille Rose had the purple ground!  And I love them, I really hope I can get them!

I hope one of the more expert can give a better opinion on the age and authenticity. Michael is right about famille rose and i agree the figures in the detail look good for age but overall i do not know as i do not have the experience or skill in Chinese Antique other than to give a novice opinion and in fact have never in my brief experience with chinese antiques have i seen one of these dotted designs before so I do not know much about these vases.

In saying that  if there are cheap then take a chance. At the very very worst they might be 1950. However they look too fine to not be late 19th. 

Waiting for a more expert opinion. Famille rose is so common, there must be lots of people that know them. 

Hi Dragonfly,

it's a bit difficult to see the people on your vase, if you have some closeup pictures, it would be much appreciated. The colors of the vase seem unusually light. From a gut feeling I would date it to the second half of the 19th century but I could be wrong.

Like Birgit, I thought it was later too. I even toyed with late 19th-20th. One of the greens on the trees looks very ‘turquoise’ whilst the other colours, as Birgit points out, are quite pastel? I also thought the way the folds in the figures’s clothing looked quite contemporary, but I now next to nothing about figures on Chinese porcelain, so this observation is not important, I’m sure.

I would like to ask, what is this creature disappearing around the side of the vase? I’m very intrigued! It looks like a creature of some sort? I’m assuming because I can see what look like limbs!

Nic

The creature might be a three legged toad. Looks funny. 

This is a good example of what I like to call the use of black.

Until sometime recently (I believe in the 20th Century - can't remember as I write this), the Chinese couldn't make black.    What they could make was dark brown.    

Antique examples that contain what looks like black, have actually been done by multiple layers of dark brown, or by putting the dark brown over green.

This example shows the dark brown perfectly.     Look at all the outlines - all dark brown.    ie, it was made prior to the ability to make black.

The general take away is black outlines are bad, whereas dark brown, or really dark dark brown, that looks almost black - is good.

This reminds me of a discussion of black glaze during a seminar given by Rose Kerr back when she was with the V&A.    She pointed out that there a no known examples of black in the Imperial Collection, and made a strong case for almost all famille noir occurring in the early 20th Century, when it became crazy popular in the US, and older examples were having black applied to catch the craze.

I never give evaluations from photos, but those are two vases that would be interesting to see in person.   If they are right, they are 19th Century.

So this is like an early stumble into the Famille noir. Interesting. 

I knew that black lines on famille rose were always a strong sign they were at least republican. I never knew why it was just something i learned myself through trial and error of looking at different Famille rose plates and vases for sale and   when ever i saw those thick jet black lines on a vase, it always told me it was well into the 20th century.  For once i know why 🙂 

Thanks. 

Posted by: Avionsunantiques

This is a good example of what I like to call the use of black.

Until sometime recently (I believe in the 20th Century - can't remember as I write this), the Chinese couldn't make black.    What they could make was dark brown.    

Antique examples that contain what looks like black, have actually been done by multiple layers of dark brown, or by putting the dark brown over green.

This example shows the dark brown perfectly.     Look at all the outlines - all dark brown.    ie, it was made prior to the ability to make black.

The general take away is black outlines are bad, whereas dark brown, or really dark dark brown, that looks almost black - is good.

This reminds me of a discussion of black glaze during a seminar given by Rose Kerr back when she was with the V&A.    She pointed out that there a no known examples of black in the Imperial Collection, and made a strong case for almost all famille noir occurring in the early 20th Century, when it became crazy popular in the US, and older examples were having black applied to catch the craze.

I never give evaluations from photos, but those are two vases that would be interesting to see in person.   If they are right, they are 19th Century.

Hi Avion

In the following examples from the weekly video we have some items that have black on them. Can you ay that these dark lines are indeed brown on green or layers of brown. 

Thanks. 

Avion 🙂 

My final question is i see alot of black colours used by the Japanese on their Kutani and much of it is dated to Meiji. Is it possible that this colour was not available to the japanese in Meiji era. Also they did not really mix colours so much as the chinese, So if it is black on kutani then it is likely black. So i wonder how all that comes about. 

I can't speak to when the Japanese developed the ability to make a black glaze

With those pictures you've shared - the "blackist" lines are over another colour.    For example, when the "dark brown" lines are over green, they look pretty close to black.    The man for example, shows this characteristic.

The "dark brown" gets darker, if not blackish when over other glazes.   If you follow the "black" lines with a magnifying glass you will see them go from very dark (when over another colour, like green for example), back to dark brown when they on their own.

By 1900, the Chinese certainly could make black - I don't know the exact date as I write this.

Black on a Kangxi piece was probably added later, or the whole thing was made later - Kangxi revival at the end of the 19th Century is when most "Kangxi" pieces on ebay etc originate.

Gotheborg has an elegant way of expressing the same thing.

"Famille noire
Meaning the "black family". This is famille verte but with a black background. Most extant examples are fakes. The best fakes have the black enamel added on real Kangxi pieces in the early 20th century. As a general rule genuine famille noire pieces felt to have been made in the Kangxi reign (1662-1722) have the black color achieved by applying a copper-green lead based enamel over an unfired coating of the dry black cobalt which are also used for black outlines. During the firing the two enamels fused resulting in a deep black effect with a hint of green especially visibly where the two layers doesn't fully cover each other. The general view is also that all pieces where the black is not made up by two layers like this, are later."

Posted by: Avionsunantiques

I can't speak to when the Japanese developed the ability to make a black glaze

With those pictures you've shared - the "blackist" lines are over another colour.    For example, when the "dark brown" lines are over green, they look pretty close to black.    The man for example, shows this characteristic.

The "dark brown" gets darker, if not blackish when over other glazes.   If you follow the "black" lines with a magnifying glass you will see them go from very dark (when over another colour, like green for example), back to dark brown when they on their own.

By 1900, the Chinese certainly could make black - I don't know the exact date as I write this.

Black on a Kangxi piece was probably added later, or the whole thing was made later - Kangxi revival at the end of the 19th Century is when most "Kangxi" pieces on ebay etc originate.

Gotheborg has an elegant way of expressing the same thing.

"Famille noire
Meaning the "black family". This is famille verte but with a black background. Most extant examples are fakes. The best fakes have the black enamel added on real Kangxi pieces in the early 20th century. As a general rule genuine famille noire pieces felt to have been made in the Kangxi reign (1662-1722) have the black color achieved by applying a copper-green lead based enamel over an unfired coating of the dry black cobalt which are also used for black outlines. During the firing the two enamels fused resulting in a deep black effect with a hint of green especially visibly where the two layers doesn't fully cover each other. The general view is also that all pieces where the black is not made up by two layers like this, are later."

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much that is great explanation, Now i must Research when the japanese used black. It may be very telling.