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I found what I wanted, there are two styles of Guangxu dragon but the one on this plaque isn't one of them. Given the size and that odd leg, I am also beginning to feel it is later.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26272/lot/42/?category=list#/
@greeno107 Tim I am very fond of these animated plaques and this one is no exception my question is when does something stand as commemorative vs intent to deceive?
@lotusblack I think the intent to deceive is somewhat subjective. It is hard to say if the artist themselves created the work to decieve...I somehow doubt it. But the seller, starting with the first person who bought it from the plaques creator knew the tru age, right?
Did they sell it as 'antique' or decorative? I don't really know that anyone can say for sure.
What can be said is that the quality of the rendering was done with care by a professional, so in that regard, the aristry is not deceptful.
This is why it is so important that the current owner, if they choose to sell the piece down the road, represent the piece honesty to the best of their knowledge.
In my opinion, it has value as art, but not antique.
@greeno107 I agree even though is later. I like the artistry very much and believe that’s the real value.
Hello Brian
The dragon on the plaque is in and out of the waves as is the one on the Sotheby’s piece. The kangxi is better done as you can see part of his tell come up behind his head and left arm. His tell is down in the waves.Here’s are some 19th century clouds in the same shape as his.this my a pinion John
Hello all, I am arriving late at this thread.
Dear Julia, who said that the scales of the dragon in the first coil are in the wrong direction? They are perfectly ok, in the same direction of the other scales. Ofcorse the dragon is missing parts, it is behind clouds! And also not completley palced within the frame.
To me this plaque is very nice, a superb example of Guangxu period. I have never seen a later example of this quality. Great piece.
Regards,
Giovanni
Brian pointed it out, in an earlier post. I assumed he meant the coil behind the head. If you think they are ok, I shall have to look again.
I am pleased you think it is OK for Guangxu as I was moving away from my earlier impression that it was. So, that means three styles of dragon scales were in use during that period.
Edit: just looked at the scales again and it is hard to follow the contortions but it does appear that Brian is correct.
I have just studied some other dragons: after I read the scales were wrong, I ended up looking at the neck the wrong way. 😊
Happy Thanksgiving to whom is celebrating. I did find this Guangxu example I’m working backwards as I still haven’t found a comparison but it has traits to support the Earlier dating.
@clayandbrush It is quite nice looking, and I have not seen a plaque from the 1970's like this, but I have some fish bowls of similar quality from the 1970's. I'll take some photos of my fishbowls when I'm at my building tomorrow for comparison.
Can you explain why the construction of the plaque is different than the typical Guangxu/early 20th c. plaques, such as the finished edges and absence of length wise marking from supports used during the firing? This is a very large plaque, and if Guangxu period, it is surprising that it does not to show some signs of old kiln techniques....even some kiln grit would be expected I think.
@greeno107 Tim your observation does have merit. Here is a Guangxu plaque and a modern plaque.
Modern plaque
Dear Greeno,
I am not sure that ALL Guangxu plaques have those support’s tracks, and ALL later ones are missing them.
Here is a Guangxu plaque that do not exhibit those marks:
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/lots/925238-plakett-porslin-kina-qingdynastin-guangxu-1862-1874
Here a qianjiang plaque by Rob Michiels:
Etc etc
Regards,
Giovanni
@clayandbrush The round plaque I think is Guangxu period as described. However, I have noticed that these round plaques do not have the marks on the back, and it is 32cm wide ... not very large, so perhaps supports during firing would not be needed.
The Qianjiang plaque is 20th c., perhaps early 20th c., but it certainly has some later color traits (the blue mountains) that look later. More importantly, it is only 19.6cm x 12.2cm.... that's really small, so I would not expect any supports used in the firing.
So, yes, I guess you are correct that it is possible for Guangxu plaques to be fired without the supports, but on such a large piece?
Maybe I am wrong about the size....
@thomasumjohnson What are the measurements of your plaque?
Dear Greeno,
everything that is fired in the kiln has some support, or it is directly lying on a flat surface. It is not matter of being large or small, it depends on firing techniques. Different types of support are seen in any period, for what I know.
Regards,
Giovanni
Closer clearer pictures are needed of the back and edges. I’m still having a hard time with this piece being as such. I see the horizontal rack marks that has been covered with kiln grit. I have seen not one large plaque with manufactured edges on the back and a prefect edge on both sides expect on modern plaques. We are not talking about a small plaque the floor tile tells us it’s large. Modern manufacturing was more accurate in shaping and forming due to automation. My understanding is earlier porcelain was scribed than snapped. That’s why the supports run Vertical to support the entire larger sheet. A wood fire kiln that is firing a large plaque laying on the ground where the temperature could not be controlled coming out with perfect back edges has to be explained. If a piece is to be concluded as a Guangxu period artistry. Being lose and picking and choosing doesn’t help. I want this piece to be Guangxu if so it will be a amazing find and would help me understand that such pieces where produced what to look for. But after looking at several hundred plaques these last few days I also own several myself. I have not found one example of a dragon in this form of perfect finish edges clouds produced in this manner boarding etc. This piece is a good study so far.
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