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My actual opinion:
Its a copy.
It is an early Yongzheng copy of Wanli Wucai.
see for instance:
I hope you all enjoyed the exercise. Cheers.
Another look at the small Wanli Wucai jar.
Here is one like yours described as qing/qianlong appreciation vase:
Here is a different shape but similar flowers, crackle, from China - even if it didn't say, the wording of the title with size first is a giveaway:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144996694526
I am sorry, but it really isn't a Yongzheng piece. I know it is hard to accept sometimes, but we have all been there. I hope you bought it because you liked it. 😊
@astromachia The key is to not fixate too much on single aspects because the fakers are very good at getting certain things very close to the real look of a period piece while they struggle to get everything right. And so the missing links cause the overall look and feel to be off. They can match colors, cause specific conditions to occur in the glaze, shape pieces impressively, but they usually can't put it all together in perfect harmony because there are just too many subtle nuances that differ between modern and authentic pieces. Like the others I remain of the opinion your vase is modern. But if you still have questions then you can always ask Peter and/or offer it to the auction houses to see what they say.
@julia I'm shocked and appalled to find that I've blown US $43.23 including commission. It was so similar to one I saw in Russia;) I could have had 10 Happy Meals at macdonalds instead.
Thank you for your time to point those examples out. I couldn't find the Russian example almost the same.
I did find a lot of fakes in a lot of reputable places though. It really does mean 'buy what appeals to you, at a price you can afford'. This one appealed to me slightly more than the happy meals.
The long history of innovation in China is hard to beat without the XRF gun and even that is becoming useless as the recipes are written into the glaze of every real piece. The most obvious issue with that one is putting the crackle glaze on first (except the inside...) and topping it with white where required, then enamels. The yellow was a bit off but the other colours are found on real pieces. Faking or paying homage to previous work is a true art form of itself. We know why fakers fake and copyists copy, because they can't create. Likely most porcelain is a variation of the work of possibly only a few hundred artists out of all humanity in history. In western painting it is probably many fewer.
I you enjoy collecting for many years to come.
@johnshoe I've popped a reply into julie to save repeating myself. Thank you for taking the time. One thing to be wary of is that the whole shebang was an evolution carried out by so few artistic innovators and the variations will be infinite so not everything will always be 'right', there were a lot of not quite right ones to get there. Of course we all know the tales of 'smashing the inferior pieces' but that doesn't ring true with what we both know about Chinese culture, and caste historically, or human nature in general. Cheers.
@astromachia I agree that unique pieces exist and people can be too rigid and not open-minded enough sometimes which can cause them to miss opportunities. Over the past couple years I gathered a couple hundred old major auction catalogs and have been blown away by some of the pieces I've seen that were being sold 40-50 years ago. Some of those, were they to be posted on our forum, might baffle us and temp some to suspect they might be modern fakes just due to their uniqueness and lack of online comps. But it is also the case that we can use this rationale to try and convince ourselves of things. The whole endeavor is a mixture of learned knowledge and gut feeling. I find the whole collecting process to be very interesting. Thanks for sharing your vase. I hope you send it up the line for a pro assessment. If you do let us know what you get back.
I'm probably not going to bother PC given the views expressed here but I certainly take his advice and agree 100% with how he says it's about the history. Homage/tribute/copy/fakes are part of that rich and interesting history and any piece is a journey down that historical path. The fact is 'the story' is the value in an object and is reflected by the price people are willing to pay.
I have noticed that even claimed pairs sometimes have different base/features /techniques/colours. I've also observed the operation of primitive kilns and predictably the results are less than consistent in one firing, and more so with multiple. Placement in the kiln influences everything along with weather. Dating items based on style is fraught with error because styles develop and change and are subject to the homage issue too. I've studied the varieties of chemical compositions of the paste, glazes and enamels and they are full of variation over the years. Most 'dating' is by the 'he was buried on ...day..' method therefore the burial items must be older than that date, or 'we dug up an old pile of broken pieces and dated it by those. Advances in scientific analysis has caused more than one red face or retraction. Most people are surprised at how far back tracing/printing/stamping/staining techniques were used in production. Probably it occurred immediately after the first Emperor requested '8 more of those cups' and the potter/painter realised it would be difficult to duplicate them manually and that a better way to satisfy the Emperor's requirements was to create a method of duplicating outline and patterns on multiple pieces. From this point it was a factory and workers, not artists, duplicated pieces. Specialisation occurred and we know the saying about how many hands it takes to create a pot. The first piece is then going to most likely be the odd one out, suspiciously different than the 8 copies, perhaps with differences only detectable by a keen eyed collector or expert. What conclusion would they form, fake or fortune? Which is worth more? It all adds to the requirement to study history, delving into every part of a culture. That, as PC says is the real value in collecting, that journey. Thanks for your assistance.
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