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The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
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@xin_fawis I guess your original comment about the shape rings true. It has quite rounded edges. Thanks for your help. There were 3 other items in the lot for £480. I wonder if there's anything else of interest? here are the only photos available:
The vase with cover is from the Guangxu period. The famille rose bowl is from the late Qing, probably Daoguang period.
@thomasumjohnson If the last photo is a realistic representation of the true color of your plate…. You bought wrong.
The last photo almost looks like famille rose, not yet in creation during the Kangxi.
Interesting you say that, I felt one of the greens was very close to teal.
I also felt the way the circle around the central pattern appears was not in keeping with the Kangxi examples. As much as anything, Kangxi lines often have a crisp or spikey look. That was one of the other differences that made me think it was later. I am looking forward to the conclusion of this as it would be useful to know if the things I felt were off, were in fact OK.
Very interesting discussion and I feel better about enjoying it seeing that the plate came with other nice 19th c pieces.
I agree that there are some things that are not really convincing on Tom’s dish, the main point being IMO the flower branches on the back. Surely, the whole painting is less detailed and “less Kangxi” than the ones sold by Sotheby’s, but we must also consider that those are of the best quality. Better pictures should tell more, but, as said before, if not Kangxi then it is a later copy but still Chinese IMO.
To what are you referring by saying “This one is even better done than your first one.”, i.e. the Worcester one is better than Tom’s one? Are you referring to the enamels, or else?
I do not believe that you are referring to the painting style, because the Worcester one seems to have been drawn by a child, in comparison. The comparison shows that the Worcester one is European even seen at 1 km far from it 😊.
I can't find a single 19th century version.. I haven't paid for this plate yet, I would be sorry to disappoint you all if I don't and we can't see it in real life, but the consensus seems to be it's fake.
I disagree that it's not painted well. It is technically much better than an original kangxi piece, which was one of my concerns. Here's a reference to blocky red flowers.
I agree that there are some things that are not really convincing on Tom’s dish, the main point being IMO the flower branches on the back. Surely, the whole painting is less detailed and “less Kangxi” than the ones sold by Sotheby’s, but we must also consider that those are of the best quality. Better pictures should tell more, but, as said before, if not Kangxi then it is a later copy but still Chinese IMO.
To what are you referring by saying “This one is even better done than your first one.”, i.e. the Worcester one is better than Tom’s one? Are you referring to the enamels, or else?
I do not believe that you are referring to the painting style, because the Worcester one seems to have been drawn by a child, in comparison. The comparison shows that the Worcester one is European even seen at 1 km far from it 😊.
Regards,
Giovanni
Dear Giovanni,
The Worcester one is imo a better copy than Tom's. You can see they did their best to copy the shape, the pattern and colour (the whole presentation). The Worcester's phoenix on this piece is lovely 🙂 Better than the left one. I found a lot of Samson's Kangxi copies. They are really really good. Even better than Chinese copy nowadays. European copies are not bad at all. Of course, we have different view for beauty. So I would not judge anyone's opinion on this example.
I'm pretty sure the plate quoted by Tom is not Kangxi. The flowers on the back look more Japanese to me than European. I'm not sure if it's Japanese, just my feeling. IMO it's neither a 19th century Chinese copy nor a modern copy. It's export style.
That's what I was thinking, the Japanese are more precise. There's no muddying of the colours. I think the Phoenix's on it are much cleaner and more technically advanced. Not necessarily more beautiful. I guess it's a matter of taste. Do you know much about the Japanese plate, e.g. how old it might be and is it rare?
I am not talking about the quality of the execution, enamels, and so on. I am not talking about technical details.
I am talking about "hand". To me, it is clear that the Worcester plate has not been made by a Chinese hand. It has been made by a hand copying the Chinese style, but not used to do that.
The "hand", i.e. the style of the scene on Tom's plate is much more Chinese to me.
I am sure that I myself could copy the scene of the Worcester plate reasonably well. The lines are very simplistic, very naive. But I would have some difficulty in copying the sinuous lines of Tom’s plate.
I fully agree with you about the flowers on the back, as said it has been the main point raising suspicions.
@thomasumjohnson Tom, that's a great turn from you in all of this. I mean that you were possibly able to let this one go "as Chinese" porcelain. I am sure that there isn't a single person on this board who at some point in the past NOT experienced the same feelings as you did 🙂
Even if this will turn out Japanese porcelain. Japanese porcelain is way less expensive, of course, there are exceptions everywhere.
Any antique item I guess can be considered as rare if there are not so many same or similar items "out there" - possible value is a different subject to look at.
@thomasumjohnson If there is this much controversy, then you are not obliged to pay for the plate if it is not as described. Maybe you should ask Peter to appraise the plate, I think he is doing videos at the moment. Then that will determine what it is, for £500 it was sold as a Kangxi plate, no question so if it is not then do not pay for it. If it is then your in the money. This one has me troubled because it shows how really hard it can be purchasing true Kangxi era.
For the sake of $12 you can get an appraisal and decide what to do with it. If Peter says it is Kangxi then just sell it as Kangxi and be done with it.
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Topics and categories on The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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Basic Rules For the BidAmount Asian Art Forum: Talk about whatever you want. You can even discuss and offer things that are for sale if they are authentic. Maximum image file size per post is 2 MB. Images of 700pxl x 700pxl are optimal if saved at a medium resolution. Be respectful of others and enjoy yourself. Click the YouTube link for a brief tutorial on using the forum. You can also EMBED Videos by cutting and pasting from You-Tube, Vimeo etc. 
