Hi Michael - 

The motif of a Court lady playing a vertical flute to attract phoenix’s was first seen on blue and white wares in the Xuande period - attached image of a mark/period ‘dice’ bowl type, D. 19.4 cm, from the NPM, Taipei, Imperial Qing Court collection. 

Your right, this bowl is not  Chenghua - the painting style, cobalt tone, writing of the mark and shape are all wrong for this period. And, although these Xuande compositions were copied during Kangxi and the Chenghua mark was widely used throughout this reign again, based on the painting style, I don’t think this bowl is from that period either. 

Whether it is 19th century, or later, I don’t have sufficient knowledge to say, so I hope others here can help with this - but from the images there seems to be very little dirt/dust in-between the glaze cracks and pulls - although the piece may have been cleaned - and the glaze appears very white ... 

Stuart 

Posted by: @ming1449

Hi Michael - 

The motif of a Court lady playing a vertical flute to attract phoenix’s was first seen on blue and white wares in the Xuande period - attached image of a mark/period ‘dice’ bowl type, D. 19.4 cm, from the NPM, Taipei, Imperial Qing Court collection. 

Your right, this bowl is not  Chenghua - the painting style, cobalt tone, writing of the mark and shape are all wrong for this period. And, although these Xuande compositions were copied during Kangxi and the Chenghua mark was widely used throughout this reign again, based on the painting style, I don’t think this bowl is from that period either. 

Whether it is 19th century, or later, I don’t have sufficient knowledge to say, so I hope others here can help with this - but from the images there seems to be very little dirt/dust in-between the glaze cracks and pulls - although the piece may have been cleaned - and the glaze appears very white ... 

Stuart 

Hi Stuart, thanks for your answer, the motive is probably inspired by the chinese story "The Flute Player". As to what this thing is, someone suggested that it could be Chinese soft paste: https://gotheborg.com/glossary/softpaste.shtml

Some pieces were only coated with a thin layer of huashi, I think this might be such a piece. These pieces are very white.

It was also suggested it might be a small tray for a teapot and cup. Not sure if that is really the case or not.

I did thoroughly clean it, including the footrim (as I hate dirty porcelain). It has a fair amount of wear, and the upper layer of what I think is huashi is cracked in several places, but I am pretty sure that the core is hard paste.

It also has a repair on the rim (a chip that was glued back on), and there is a small area on the inside of the rim, where there is glaze loss.

Thanks for the very clear and detailed photos; the footrim looks very regular and possibly finished on a machine , I have seen similar on kangxi revivial pieces such as prunus vases from the late C19th or early C20th, and the glaze finish with crackles is also something you see then. 

But, there is something about the shape of the bowl, the crackles and the blue tone which also makes me think this could be Japanese , late Meiji, and the bare outside with the two rings also is more typical of Japanese wares, I think. The Japanese kilns often used this chenghua commendation mark , so that's my guess- late C19th or early C20th Japanese.

I agree with Tam, the lady isn’t Chinese. 

Yes, the Cheng Hua mark does appear often on Japanese wares- so the lady may be from the Tokyo area.

Well, I disagree. I'm pretty sure that the motive is inspired by the Chinese tale "The Fluteplayer".

Michael M,

Ok to disagree, but you do know that Japanese folks would also be familiar with Chinese historical characters and myths?

Thanks,

George

Posted by: @gfhandel

Michael M,

Ok to disagree, but you do know that Japanese folks would also be familiar with Chinese historical characters and myths?

Thanks,

George

I don't doubt that there was some cross-cultural understanding and exchange of stories/ideas, I would never try to dispute that. My point was that I do not believe this to be japanese. I see no evidence, when looking at it, that it should be japanese. The bottom is not japanese. The chenghua mark execution does not look like the ones on japanese items (at least that I've seen). That is why I disagree (but I am open to being proven wrong).

In my opinion, and from the input I've gotten in the chinese collectors group on facebook, this looks like chinese soft paste, in as much as it has a hard body that got a coating of huashi clay, which is why it has that almost ding ware white body and the abundant crackle. It seems like it was something they did, because it made it more suitable for decoration (according to the gotheborg link). It could be early 19th century, and it might have been a small tray for a teapot and cup.

I would, however, feel a lot more comfortable about that if I could find something else with the same shape, to compare with, but I've had zero luck in that regard so far (even looking at japanese items gave no similar results). The only items with a similar shape, are round porcelain lidded boxes, but there is nothing on the rim of my dish to indicate that it ever had a lid.

So that is basicly where I'm at right now.

I've included the story of the Fluteplayer below, as I thought someone else might find it fascinating to read, if they are unfamiliar with it.

The Fluteplayer

It once happened, in days long since past, that a young daughter was
born to a Prince of Tsin. And when she was born a rock was brought to
the prince which, when it was split open, disclosed a lump of green jade-
stone. When the little daughter's first birthday came around, a table
laden with a great variety of gifts, including the precious jade-stone, had
been prepared for the child; but the stone was the only thing which she
would take from the table, and the only thing with which she would play.
And, since she would not allow it to leave her hands, she was named
"Toys-with- Jewels." As she grew up she became lovelier in face and in
form than any other maiden, and proved to be greatly gifted. Since
she played beautifully upon the syrinx, and understood how to compose
melodies without ever having taken a lesson, the Prince of Tsin had the
most skilled of all his artisans carve a syrinx out of the green jade-stone.
When the maiden blew it, it sounded like the singing of the phcenix; and
therefore the prince honored and loved the child, and had a palace many
stories in height built, wherein to guard her. This palace was called the
Phcenix Palace, and the high tower which rose before it was known as the
Phcenix Tower. When Toys-with-Jewels was fifteen years of age, the
Prince of Tsin thought of finding her a husband. But Toys-with-Jewels
entreated him and said: "Let it be no other man but one who knows how
to blow the syrinx sweetly, so that his playing and mine may sound to-
gether. Such an one I would take, but another I should not care to
have." The prince had his people seek everywhere for a player on the
syrinx, but without success.

Now one day it chanced that Toy s-with- Jewels was in her palace.
She rolled back her curtains and saw the heavens were clear and cloudless,
and the moonlight as radiant as a mirror. She commanded her maids to
light the incense, took up her green jade syrinx, and seated at the window,
commenced to play. The tones of her melody were so clear and high that
it seemed as though they must have been heard in the very heavens. A
faint breeze stirred continuously, and suddenly it seemed as though
someone without were accompanying her melodies; now near, now far
it sounded, and secretly aroused Toys-with-Jewels's astonishment.
When she ceased blowing, the music of her unknown partner stopped as
well ; only its overtones trembled for a moment in soft echoes on the air.
Toys-with- Jewels stood for a moment at the window: and a sadness as
though she mourned for something she had lost overcame her. Thus
she stared out of the window until midnight, when the moon had gone
down, and the incense had burned out. Then she laid the syrinx in her
bed and reluctantly went to sleep.

And while she slept she dreamed that the gate of the South- Western
Heavens opened wide, and that a cloud-radiance of five colors, glowing and
shining like the day, streamed forth from it. And a handsome youth,
with a headdress of stork feathers, came riding down from the heavens
on a phcenix, stood before the Phcenix Tower and said to her: "I am the
spirit of the Taihua Mountains, and am your destined husband. On the
Day of Mid-Autumn we shall meet again." Then he said not another
word; but drawing a flute of some red precious stone from the girdle
about his hips, leaned against the balcony and began to play. Then the
bright-colored phcenix beat his wings and danced, and the singing of the
phcenix and the tones of the flute sounded together in harmony through
all the heights and depths; sweetly their sound fell upon the ear, and
filled it with an entrancing echo. The soul and the thoughts of Toys-
with- Jewels became confused. "What is this melody called?" she asked.
"It is the first movement of the melody of the Taihau Mountains,"
replied the handsome youth. "Is it possible to learn it?" again asked
Toy s-with- Jewels. "Are you not already my promised wife? W T hy
should I not be able to teach it to you?" said the youth. He went to-
ward her and took her hand. This so terrified the maiden that she
awoke, her eyes still filled with her dream.

When the day had dawned, she told her dream to the prince, and the
prince repeated it to his minister Meng Ming, and sent the latter out to
the Taihua Mountains to investigate the matter. There a village elder
told Meng Ming what follows: "Since the middle of July a strange
person has appeared in this neighborhood. He has woven a hut of reeds
for himself on the sparkling hill of stars, and lives there quite alone.
Every day he is accustomed to descend in order to buy wine which he
drinks in solitude. And he plays his flute without interruption until
evening. Its tones can be heard throughout the whole region. Who-
ever hears them forgets all weariness. Whence the stranger comes none
of us know."

Then Meng Ming began to climb the mountains, but when he had
reached the sparkling hill of stars, he really saw a man who wore a head-
dress of stork's feathers. His face appeared to be carved from a precious
stone, his lips were red, and the expression of his countenance so free and
so celestially happy that he seemed to be living in a world beyond that
of man. Meng Ming at once suspected that this was anything but an
ordinary human being. He bowed and asked his name. "My father's
name is Schao," replied the youth, "and my given name is Sche. Who
are you? And why do you come here?" "I am the minister of this
land," replied Meng Ming. "My lord and master is about to seek a
husband for his daughter. Since she blows the syrinx with great art,
he will take none other for son-in-law but one who is able to play together
with her. Now the prince had heard that you were deeply versed in
music, and has been thirsting to look upon you. Hence he sent me out
to take you to him." Said the youth, "I hardly know anything about
the various tonalities, and aside from this negligible flute-playing I have
no art. I do not dare to follow your command." "Let us seek my master
together," replied Meng Ming, "and then all will be made clear."

So Meng Ming took him back with him in his carriage, first made his
report, and then led Schao Sche before the prince that he might pay
homage to him. The prince sat in the Phcenix Tower, and Schao Sche
cast himself down before him and said: "I am a subject from the country-
side and from the hills, and an altogether ignorant man. I know nothing
of court ceremonies, and beg that you will treat me mercifully and for-
give me." The Prince of Tsin studied Schao Sche, and noticed the free
and happy expression of his countenance, which seemed truly celestial.
And he took a lively pleasure in the arrival of the stranger, had him seat
himself beside him and asked: "I hear that you know how to play the
flute admirably. Can you also blow the syrinx?" "I can play the
flute, but not the syrinx," replied Schao Sche. "I had been looking for a
man who could play the syrinx, but the flute is not the same thing."
Turning to Meng Ming he added, "He is no partner for my daughter,"
and commanded that he be led away. Then Toys-with-Jewels sent a serv-
ing maid to the prince with the message: "Flute and syrinx — both obey
the same law of music. If your guest can play the flute so admirably,
why not let him show his art?"

The Prince of Tsin took her advice, and ordered Schao Sche to play,
Schao Sche took up his flute, made of a crimson precious stone: the jewel
was radiant and oily, its crimson gleam was mirrored in the eyes of those
present. It was truly a rare treasure. Schao Sche played the first
movement : slowly a clear wind arose. At the second movement colored
clouds came flying from all four points of the heavens; and when he
played the third, white storks could be seen dancing opposite each other
in the skies. Peacocks sat in pairs in the trees, hundreds of birds of
different kinds accompanied his music with the harmony of their songs,
until, after a time, they dispersed.

The Prince of Tsin was highly delighted. In the meantime Toys-
with-Jewels had witnessed the whole miracle from behind a curtain and
said: "In truth, this is he who ought to play with me." The Prince
asked Schao Sche: "What is the origin and the difference between flute
and syrinx?" "In the beginning," replied Schao Sche, "the syrinx was
invented. But then men found that greater simplicity was possible, and
out of the pipe of four reeds they made the pipe of one reed, the flute."
"And how is it," again asked the Prince of Tsin, "that you are able to lure
the birds to you by means of your playing?" "The tones of the flute
resemble the song of the phoenix," returned Schao Sche. "The phoenix
is the king of all the hundreds of species of birds. Hence they all believe
that the phoenix is singing and hasten up. Once, when the Emperor
Sun discovered the mode Schao Schao, the phoenix himself appeared.
And if it is possible to lure the phoenix by means of music, why not the
other birds?" The Prince of Tsin noticed that the speaker's voice was
full and sonorous, grew more and more content, and said: "I have a
favorite daughter whose name is Toy s-with- Jewels. She has so great an
understanding of music that I would not willingly give her to a deaf man.
Hence she shall be your wife." Schao Sche's face grew sober, he bowed
a number of times and said: "I am a peasant from the mountains. How
might I venture to enter into a union with the noble princess?" "When
my daughter was but a child," answered the prince, "she swore that none
other than a blower on the syrinx should be her husband. Your flute,
however, penetrates heaven and earth and conquers every living creature :
it is better than the syrinx. Then, too, my daughter once dreamed a
dream. This is the Day of Mid-Autumn, and the will of heaven is plain.
Hence, do not refuse!" Then Schao Sche cast himself on the ground and
spoke his thanks.

Now the prince wished his soothsayer to select an auspicious day for
the nuptials. But the soothsayer said: "This is the Mid-Autumn Day,
no time is more propitious. The moon shines full in the heavens, and
all men on earth breathe joyfully." So the prince at once had a bath
prepared, and had Schao Sche led to it, that he might cleanse himself.
And when he had changed his garments he was taken to the Phoenix
Castle, where he was united with Toys-with Jewels. The following day
the Prince appointed Schao Sche a mandarin; but he paid no attention to
his duties, for all his official rank, and spent all his time in the Phoenix
Castle. He ate no cooked food and only, from time to time, drank a
few goblets of wine. Toy s-with- Jewels learned from him his secret of
breathing, so that in the end she too was able to live without food. In
addition he taught her a melody by means of which one could lure the
phoenix.

Half a year had gone by when, one night, the pair were playing
together in the moonlight. Suddenly there appeared a violet-colored
phoenix, who stationed himself to the left of the Phoenix Tower, and a
crimson dragon, who uncoiled himself at its right. Then Schao-Sche
said: "In the upper world I was a spirit. Then the Ruler of the Heavens
sent me down, when the books of history had become disordered, so that
I might order them. Thus, in the seventeenth year of the reign of the
Emperor Djou Schuan-Wang on earth, I was born as a son into the family
Schao. Up to the death of Schuan-Wang, the historiographers were
incapable. But I arranged the books of history from the beginning to the
end of the period and ordered them, so that they might be continued.
And because of my labors with the history books the people called me
Schao Sche. But all this happened more than a hundred years ago.
The Ruler of the Heavens commanded me to rule in the Hua Hills as a
mountain spirit. Yet, since this marriage with you was already pre-
destined, he brought us together by means of the tones of the flute.
Now, however, we may no longer remain here on earth, for dragon and
phoenix have come to bear us away. We must depart.

Toys-with- Jewels first wished to bid her father farewell; but Schao
Sche said: "No, those who wish to become spirits must turn away their
thoughts from all that is earthly. How could you then still cling to a
relative?" So Schao Sche mounted the crimson dragon and Toys-with-
Jewels the violet phoenix, and they rode away from the Phcenix Tower
through the clouds. And that same night the phcenix was heard to sing
in the mountains of Taihua.

When the maid of the princess reported what had happened to the
Prince of Tsin the following morning, he first lost all power of speech.
And at last he wailed: "So it is true that such happenings as this, with
spirits and genies, really take place? If a dragon or phcenix were to
come this moment to carry me off, I would leave my land with as little
regret as I would fling away an old shoe." He sent out many men into the
Taihua Mountains to look for the two musicians. But they had dis-
appeared for good and all, and were never seen or heard of again.

Hi Michael -

You are quite right, this is a story from the Spring and Autumn period of ancient China, of Xiao Shi and his wife Nong Yu, daughter of Duke Mu of the state of Qin. They lived for many years in the Phoenix Pavilion and there Xiao Shi would often play his flute, making phoenix calls with it. One day, a pair of phoenix's answered the call, and carried the two of them to heaven ...

George is quite right, the Japanese had, and still have, extensive knowledge of historical Chinese characters, stories, myths and poetry ...

Stuart

Apologies  - we must have posted very close to one another ...

My reference for this story/motif is taken from the Xuande marked/period examples in the NPM, Taipei ...

Stuart 

Thanks for sharing the story, Michael.

Regarding your bowl, I agree that the mark does not look like the typical Japanese version, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility because the shape and pattern could be Japanese.

Certainly, the shape doesn't look old-style Chinese but could it be a relatively modern (ie post 1940s/50s) Chinese item?  If it were a tray and around 100+ years old, there would be quite a bit of scratching or wear of some kind.  Can you see any?

Posted by: @julia

Thanks for sharing the story, Michael.

Regarding your bowl, I agree that the mark does not look like the typical Japanese version, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility because the shape and pattern could be Japanese.

Certainly, the shape doesn't look old-style Chinese but could it be a relatively modern (ie post 1940s/50s) Chinese item?  If it were a tray and around 100+ years old, there would be quite a bit of scratching or wear of some kind.  Can you see any?

There is a fair amount of surface wear, but not excessive. There are also a couple of smaller areas with damage, including a larger chip on the rim that was glued back on. I can't rule out that it could be vintage, rather than antique, but the amount of firing and production flaws makes me think that it is probably older. I will try to get around to taking some better close-ups of the flaws and surface areas that I find peculiar.