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Hello there. The owner of the plate says that the plate was taken by his grandfather from Saudi Arabia in 1905. Is this plate an example of Asian art? What do you think about pattern quality. What is the sign of a sandy base?
goxu
Hi Goxu,
I am sure this pattern has been discussed on here, before. Sadly, I can't find it or remember what was said. It wouldn't have given you any guarantee of the plate's authenticity, but may have helped in some way.
As for a sandy base, it could be a sign someone is trying to deceive you. Single elements such as that shouldn't be viewed in isolation but as part of the whole thing ie the shape, the colours, the glaze, even the way it feels in your hand.
For what it is worth, I find the rear decoration a little strange and unbalanced. It looks as though there should be 4 symbols, not three and one of the double circles seems to disappear for a while.
I am sure someone else will be able to help more explicitly.
Julia
I agree this is a low-quality modern piece , the decoration on the front is very poor - the centre motif should be the chinese character for happiness or the shou character, but it is terribly done , and the clouds and radiating lines are childish and unattractive , imo
tam
For comparison: this is an authentic Daoguang plate from the Desaru shipwreck, therefore the glaze is missing. Apart from that not too different from Goxu‘s example I think. This pattern was produced in large amounts during the first half of the 19th century.
Birgit
Thank you Birgit for similar example. According to my research, pilgrims who went to Arabia in the 19th century took their zemzem water and dates to their countries with porcelain bottles and plates. These porcelain products were imported from China to sell to pilgrims by Arabs. I have seen that these porcelains are made more sloppy than similar samples sent to other countries.
goxu
Well, I would say these are completely different kinds of objects:
mainly in the care taken over the painting of the clouds and radiating lines, and the quality and nature of the porcelain material - it's true they are superficially similar but I believe yours is a modern fake , probably made by copying the auction catalogue pictures.
tam
I thought it might be a modern fake. I finally decided to buy it because I thought the plate was too sloppy to be fake. I hope I made the right decision. Maybe his patterns were drawn by an apprentice. Or the boss delayed that month's wages.
goxu
Hi Goxu -
Although I can only view images on my iPhone at present, I would concur with the above comments - a very recent copy of a known design ...
Stuart
I'm sorry, I don't want to take much time. But the plate is owned by an old and respected lady. I talked to her. She says with great certainty that her grandfather bought the platter from Arabia during the pilgrimage visit during the Ottoman state in the early 1900s. The plate could be a copy made on those dates. But are you sure it's a modern fake?
goxu
A few more versions of the plate. Can you describe them as modern fake or recent copy?
goxu
Dear Goxu,
this is the first time, I think, that I have a different opinion than that of Stuart😊.
I am sure that the reason is because he is looking at the pictures on the phone.
I do not agree with the opinion of others here, your plate is about end of 19th - beginning of 20th century and what especially tells this is just the base.
You may have misguided the opinion of others here in calling the base “sandy”. I do not think that there is sand there, you may have been referred to the appearance only.
This unglazed base and foot, with many minute dark spots is common on folk ware of that period. It is especially seen on dishes with a single big fish, see the pictures attached here.
Regards,
Giovanni
Dear Giovanni -
You are more the welcome, as is everyone else, to disagree with me at anytime😊 ...
I learnt a long time ago to defer, and try and learn from, others with far greater experience then I, especially within the different fields of Asian art - and there are such tremendous knowledge people within this forum🙂 😊 ...
Warmest regards'
Stuart
Hi Goxu -
Giovanni has raised some interesting thoughts/opinions regarding the foot/base, and also provided a good example for comparison in the fish dish base image, which displays the typical numerous, random dark spots found on such wares.
Now I have access to larger images again, it is obvious that this feature, as he correctly points out, is also present on the foot/base of your dish. The overall painting style of the design is, as already mentioned, very poorly executed and clearly a continuation of/later copy of that which, as Birgit mentions, were produced in large numbers throughout the first half of the 19th century ...
Unless back up by cast-iron provenance such as photos/drawings/written records/receipts, I have learnt to be somewhat weary of 'old family stories' regarding antiques over the years. However based on the close similarities with the foot/base, and Giovanni's experience on such wares, I now think your dish is a late 19th/early 20th century folk piece, the design copying the earlier 19th century pattern - IMO ...
Stuart
Thank you for your help. I bought the plate. I am so happy
goxu
Dear Stuart,
thank you.
To be precise, that myriad of minute black spots is not in the paste, it is just dirty trapped in the many pits of the paste. I never did it on such plates, but I am convinced that, after a bath in water with enzyme-based detergent, they will disappear.
What makes a big difference here is the type of paste, which surface is not sugary white like we see on later pieces, it is matte white and, although you can feel the pits, smooth to touch.
I fully agree with you that such stories of pieces bought by grand-grand fathers etc. are generally not worth to be taken into account, but in this case the lady was probably right. I say “probably” because I do not know if these plates were indeed imported in Saudi Arabia, but it may well be true.
Regards,
Giovanni
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