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@goodwillhunter I agree with John...very strange to see the double empty circles on the bottom of an export armorial plate. Once again, my ears are ringing that this may yet be another example of a genuinely old plate that has been redecorated.
Very interesting point. The pastes as Vic has indicated does look correct but the gilding of the Phoenix looks really messy and thick. Is this a repaint for a broken service?
Thank you all for your help. I took some more pictures in slightly different lighting. I think it looks great and could very well be from the original service.
Best,
Christian
I think it looks 18th c. I am simply not entirely sure when in the 18th c, a couple of things still make me think it could be later but then, I have been playing around with Qianlong plates today so maybe my mind is stuck up towards that end.
I am certain it isn't what the auction house said. It is a nice plate, enjoy it!
Hi Christian, I’m no expert on armorial decoration but on your new pictures the back of the plate looks good to me. A typical 1720 rim decoration and the middle has that „dry“ look one would expect. Kangxi to Qianlong glaze should feel a bit oily to the touch, maybe you can compare it with other authentic pieces.
Birgit
So I put Christian's plate side by side with the one sold by Sotheby's.... let's take a look...
The general design and spacing is spot on.
Here's my concern... perhaps just lighting, but enamel elements in Christian's plate seem to dominate over the gold gilt, while it is reverse in the Sotheby's plate.
Take the floral scroll around the outer rim - In Christian's plate, the red creates a dramatic contrast with the gold. In the Sotheby's plate, the red lines are finer, and the gold is the dominant color.
Now, look at central panel design - In Christian's plate, the black lines are well defined throughout. In the Sotheby's plate, the lines are overall less noticable, and in many cases not existant.
The same situation exists with the line work on the eagle - In Christian's plate, the black lines are well defined, but the wings for some reason seem to lack detail of the feathers. In the Sotheby's example the lines are almost silver/gray in color, the gold a shade or two lighter, yet all the details are very well displayed.
Could this be a matter of lighting? Could this be a variation of the hand of a different artist? I suppose both could be true, but there is definately a distinct difference in the appearance of each plate as a whole.
In the field of art forgery, these are the very type of concerns that keep art collectors up at night.
I would like to see some 18th c. examples of export ware with the hollow double circle and the 3 wucai floral sprays.
There was a time when I would have said...'an export forgery? Never!' But given what the prices of these rare export pieces go for these days.... I think we need to excercise extreme caution.
I still as thinking 20th century but the back foot looks period it seems different variations of this same design have been produced.
@greeno107 Unless someone can find another plate from this service with a back like this one, to me this has to either be a later replacement piece or an outright fake. The floral sprays on the back are poorly spaced. I have a high quality Yongzheng armorial - there are four floral sprays evenly spaced on the back. I also think the foot looks odd, with the oatmeal color seeming to go in and out weirdly - it looks contrived to me.
Thank you all for the great information you provided. I hope Sotheby’s can solve the mystery.
Speaking of different lighting, pictures, cameras etc. I recently took a picture of a Kangxi charger and compared it with a photo on Christie’s website. It is amazing how much the colors differ due to lighting, camera and bad photographer😂 Thought that was quite interesting.
@goodwillhunter That's a beautiful charger! Digital cameras take measurements of light and color from multiple points, and then the computer makes a decision based upon pre-programed settings if the photo needs adjusting, and then makes the adjustment.
Looking at your farm/village scene charger photo, it looks like the camera felt the colors were too intense, and reduced the saturation. So, compared to the example you cited with Sotheby's, the color looks washed out.
I played around with the photo you took on my phone. When I increased saturation, the colors line up very well with the Sotheby's example. It appears that your plate does not have much of the dark emerald green enamel that the Sotheby's example has in the tree's leaves.... you only have one man with a bright green shirt driving cattle (about 8 O'clock on the center panel).
More importantly, the line work of your farm/village scene charger is quite spectacular... very complex. The lines do not dominate over the colors and overall design.... they go from thick, to thin, to non-existant throughout each particular design element (border, foral panels, center scene).
I tried a similar test with your armorial plate. It required that I reduce the saturation, increase tint (green/blue), decrease warm (red/yellow), and the match up was better, but not as good as I got with the farm/village charger.
There's nothing scientific about what I was doing, so I'm not going to post the photo results hence they be used to discredit your plates. Your plates are both quite beautiful, and I feel strongly that the only genuine authentication should be done while physically handling them.
That said, all the tweeking I did regardng color and light never resolved the differences in the line work. If collectors of armorials are okay with the 'heavy hand' explination, then you should do well with it.
@greeno107 I greatly appreciate your time and effort. I hope I can update you soon on the status of the plate.
Unfortunately, the Kangxi charger is not mine. It’s currently on display at the Phoenix Art museum. They have a great Asian Art exhibition. Here are a few more pictures. I hope you enjoy. Thank you again!
Best,
Christian
@goodwillhunter I'm curious, where did they date that last bowl with the interior ribs? Is that a Song piece?
@johnshoe I believe it was Yuan but please don’t quote me on this. I’ll find out.
So I have been following this thread because you armorial plate has a lot of similarities to a pair of plates that John G. posted here a while ago, which I currently have in my possession. For about a month and a half I have been looking into them, mostly trying to track down info on the provenance at the MFA.
I am of the opinion that the armorial decorations were possibly painted in Europe on late Kangxi blanks that shipped over as ballasts, or lesser wares. the enamel and gilding is not very Chinese, but the bodies themselves are certainly of the period. The red flowers on the reverse are very much in line with a pair of Bont bowls that I have, stylistically and in terms of shade of red.
As far as double rings on the back of armorials, it seems plausible, just depending upon the exact period, I can't say exactly what yours is, but I wonder if the heavy handedness of the decoration is due to being European.
Here is a link to his post. I will try and photograph my bont bowls as a comparison later today.
Jeremy
@julia Did you notice the difference of the black outline in the center motif on the Guest and Gray dishes? It seems there is quite the difference between the two dishes. One looks more similar to my dish while the other one resembles that of Sotheby’s.
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