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@dcolosio I’m not sure about markings. The reason the older one are the interest is two reasons the carving quality and the depth. The deeper the carving the more layers that were added. Some bodies can take almost one full year to build up.
@johnshoe Thanks John, will do once I get it back over here. Didn't realize you could do the "Ivory test" on these also! great tip! 🙂
@lotusblack Makes sense, that is cool info! I've always liked the way the good cinnabar carvings looked and have had so many fakes. lol
Thank you Brian! 🙂
@imperialfinegems Mark, as a follow up, the red pigment did come off with acetone. I wasn't able to get more close ups for layering though at the time. 🙁 So I am thinking the consensus is a newer piece but actually Cinnabar.. ? Not much value, but better than resin I would guess.
Anyways, thanks for the help everyone, You are all great! This is so educational! I appreciate it. 🙂
Doug
@dcolosio I’ve not tried Mark’s recommendation of using acetone to test cinnabar. Acetone is a solvent that works on almost all petroleum based plastics, paints, and enamels, so I’m not sure how it can confirm the authenticity of cinnabar, a non-petroleum mineral based lacquer, but I think I’ll test it out later this weekend.
I have literally handled similar gourd boxes before, so I recognize it as a late 20th c piece from past experience. However, one of your photos you posted tells it all.
The crack is not age related. The notion that cinnabar is prone to cracking is untrue. Low quality cinnabar, especially from the early 20th c. used unkilned wood or paper cores that warped/shrunk, and then consequently the lacquer would crack.
You can view many examples of Ming cinnabar made with kiln dried wood cores that look as good as the day they were made just Google ‘Ming cinnabar museum’.
Also, notice that the cinnabar remained intact, and there is no visible core. That’s because the piece is resin, through and through.
Also note the swirling coloration in the red lacquer. There is no layering to speak of…just the inconsistent mix of the dye in the resin.
Finally, there is a pit in the side of the gourd stem. The edges of the pit are smooth/ rounded, so this is not damage, but rather an imperfection that occurred during casting.
I also see some sanding and possible tooling occurred after casting as I can see fine straight lines caused by sandpaper on the surfaces. This is also a bad sign of modern work.
Good cinnabar is very rare because it took 100 times longer to make than porcelain, it was expensive to make, and there were only a small percentage who were interested in owning it (compared to porcelain).
The box is pretty, enjoy it fir what it is!
Hi Doug,
Congratulations you have a genuine example of cinnabar. Yours is a unusual design. I don't think it's new btw. But it's not really old either. Perhaps mid 20th century. There was at the time a group of artists working for the govt that were producing high quality examples of cinnabar and jades. I think yours is from that period. But I am not 100% sure. Unfortunately I am not a expert. Nor a collector of such.
The acetone test is true and tested way of testing cinnabar. If you kindly Google said you will see. No resin based material will react in the same way period!
It's a simple test that requires only a small wipe/dab on the subject matter. No aggressive motion is required
Another, as already posted by another member is a hot pin test. But personally I prefer the acetone test. It's less evasive imo.
Please let us know your results.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Mark, so I tested the only piece of cinnabar I have currently at home, an early 20th set of boxes in the form of scrolls & book.
I swabbed with acetone, and indeed the tip turned orange.
I don’t have any resin pieces to test, but I found the article you mention on the acetone test… interesting, but I am fairly certain that a resin piece that has a coating of cinnabar lacquer would produce similar results. I think these coated pieces do exist.
For this reason, and to avoid potentially damaging the cinnabar, I think the method I’d recommend for authentication is to simply look for layers and signs of carving.
As you can see, the layers appear like growth rings in a tree trunk. The more thin layers, the better the quality.
You can also see the rather sharp cuts and micro chipping that occurs on 20th c. pieces. Early pieces from the Ming to Qianlong period were carefully carved, then polished, so the layers are visible, but not the sharp edges.
That said, Doug, if your box has a wood or paper core, as all genuine cinnabar pieces have, I stand corrected. Maybe take a clear photo of the crack in the stem of the gourd and see what’s holding it together.
Your absolutely correct. I did recheck and they do apparently make resin copies with cinnabar layer/coating. So a acetone test maybe inconclusive. It's all very interesting I must write.
So a acetone test along with a loupe are needed to confirm if it's genuine or not. I submit a hot pin test would confirm either way. But it's destructive and should only used as a last resort.
Nice cinnabar example you have posted btw.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Thanks! I wish it was a genuine Qianlong period box, but one can dream!
Stick a pin in it! If it goes in then it's a repro anyway, so a little hole in the bottom or somewhere inconspicuous isn't going to change the small value it would have if it's a resin copy. And if it is real cinnabar the pin won't hurt it.
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