Maybe Arita?

Hi Xin,

It seems almost absurd for me to be giving you advice 🤣, but for what its worth, I think its definitely a genuine, old imari tokurri. Whether its late 17th or 18th century, I ‘m sure I don’t know. I always wanted to find one of these, no luck yet. Very pretty tokkuri.

Todd

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-imari-square-tokkuri-bottle-late-17th-4089391-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4089391

Reminiscent... 

Posted by: @watership

Hi Xin,

It seems almost absurd for me to be giving you advice 🤣, but for what its worth, I think its definitely a genuine, old imari tokurri. Whether its late 17th or 18th century, I ‘m sure I don’t know. I always wanted to find one of these, no luck yet. Very pretty tokkuri.

Todd

Thank you Todd for your hint. Japanese ware is not my main focus of collecting, so sometime I need support from others.

Since I found following example which has a similar motif, glaze and cobalt colour, I'm a little bit confused. 🤔 😜 

https://www.trocadero.com/stores/paha/items/1413501/Fine-Arita-Sake-Flask-Tokkuri-18th-century

Hi Zin,

Think Todd is on the correct track.  Think your bottle is Edo I realize that the Edo period covers just over 260 years so that some stylistic changes took place in terms of decoration. Generally Arita wares of the early Edo period have less fussy decoration with more space, the earliest were just blue and white. As color was introduced the decoration became much more crowded. Think you example could be late 17c or early 18th so transitional. You have demonstrated to all on this forum you have a great understanding of shape ,form and quality of decoration in Chinese ceramics, and the differences between periods . So I am sure you will understand that it can be difficult to assign exact dates to items made on the cusp of change.  I like your bottle very much and the example shown by Todd. 

Two links showing similar bottles the first 17thc the second from the 18th showing how the decoration changed think your example is closer to the first. It s interesting to see that although the decoration changes the basic form and shape remained the same so making exact dating difficult.

Michael.

https://www.trocadero.com/stores/orientaltreasurebox/items/1317821/Japan-Genroku-Period-1700s-Imari-Tokkuri-Sake-Bottle

https://cpsheffield.com/items/japanese-kenjo-imari-tokkuri-e18thc/

@brettm

Thank you Michael for this information. I appreciate it.

Xin

@xin_fawis
If you can spare the change; it's worth sending to Peter for some preliminary thoughts if you think you'll invest yourself further into it in the future, be that financially or total time consumed. 

If you can spare a daunting read, here's a shoddily offered history lesson with very little reward and a lot of patience required: 

This is a highly nuanced area within Arita-ware and Japanese ceramics in general.
While there's some good intentions in here; I'd also like to clear some things up for lurkers, future members, and current ones as well..

(I don't mean to sound callous or pretentious, as it is not my intention so I do apologize if it comes across as such - I learn something new about these types of wares every day..
Also the amount I learn from members here on Chinese dwarfs anything I have to offer by comparison; still getting a hang of distinguishing Hong Kong mid-20th from mid-19th, I promise 👍 )
This is to simply help inform..

Imagine Chinese tributes (let's say Late Qing Famille Verte) that were actually tributes to their Kangxi predecessors, and now there are fakes of those tributes.
Sometimes, even to a somewhat seasoned eye - these can be hard to differentiate.

So, imagine Japanese tributing themselves for many many centuries, and other countries, and doing it again generation to generation & kiln to kiln meticulously.
This especially applies to Arita-ware: a piece by Sakaida Kakiemon XIV in 2000 looked just like the first versions nearly 400 years prior when he wanted it to.

Also, colour being introduced in Arita exports was not at all the reason for it to get "busier" - if anything, many kilns simplified their styles because of this without being overly reliant on underglaze blue and white. 
Dutch exports we often imagine as Arita-ware; were not representative of the region by-in-large.
These relatively cluttered patterns and more opulent designs, were ordered via the Dutch for the European market to compensate for the (at the time) reduction of Chinese exports.

That being said; there's the tributing aspect to remember:
"Ko-Imari" and "Ko-Kutani" was largely revived during the late Edo and Meiji Period; meaning 19th century, and later throughout the 20th century.

This especially happened when the Meiji restoration occurred and Japan opened its ports to the west.

I'm far from the first person to be saying "don't take everything from the internet" - and don't take it from me; ask a real expert.

To me however, there are some issues with the shared second example below the Trocadero link at hand (and you shouldn't use Trocadero as a comparison per general in many cases, Todd did it right with Christie's) - and with zero reason should it be used as a comparison:

1) He isn't showing the base.. but unlike Chinese foot-rims, the base is far from a surefire "yes or no" to condemn a piece.
It's not like an auction house hiding the foot-rims in catalogues at fear of being faked either - and actually, an auction house would be the first place he would go to if this was a true Kenjo example: even post-Japanese market crash, he would have one of the large houses promising him the moon for consignment; or he would be working with the piece via private sales channels - not an email enquiry basis.
These are, beyond, exceedingly rare. 

It's not to say he's being nefarious; by all accounts he seems genuine in his efforts - and Japanese is confusing with so many different provinces and regions, styles, sub-styles, ect. 
(We for instance, refer to most Kinrande and polychrome Arita export combinations in the west as "Imari" whereas Imari was a port, and there was also wares specific to the area).

2) That style of kinrande was most common when coming from the Hizen Kilns in the 19th century (especially the old Mikawachi kilns used by major Arita exporters like Fukagawa and the Tashiro firm [Hichozen wares] during the first part of the Meiji Period), and it's been said with relative credibility that the olive/mustard green (I'll attach below) in the mountain cutaway near up most end of the cartouche was not introduced until the early 19th century for these exports - so, the end of the Edo period..

Of course, put two people in a room, you'll get three opinions - so this in itself should be taken with a grain of salt.

Here's one of the borders of my pieces of early Koransha fired at the Mikawachi kilns:

Sources for another example of a piece made at the Mikawachi kiln, early Meiji:
https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/1453409
(Ironically who I believe he credited for a "similar version" - but they have a great collection; and are worth checking out in detail) 

So basically; you really do need an expert to distinguish this stuff - and even they struggle, and are harder and harder to find these days since the money isn't as in the market as it once was anymore.

I don't like using this source for antiques, translations, or attributes to students/tributes vs original masters (or that site in general) but this seller has always been honest about what is vintage and what is not - and this piece featured could pass as much older; but dates to post-WW2

One more for fun:

These are both kinrande Kutani style ones - and they honestly look pretty similar.
The difference? About 150+ years

It's a really tricky area - use trustable references (not outdated "Export Porcelain Guide" books written before the resurgences/fakes hit the markets) but museums, industry veterans, and current reputable dealers who are specialists or have experience in this area (and aren't trying to sell you something).
Even they will disagree at times; but they'll generally be able to give you a more similarly aligned consensus after asking enough and testing yourself to detect them.

I'm still very much in that process myself and a long way off from being able to offer you accurate assistance or help; but wanted to offer this as a way of showing just how careful you should be when attributing certain niches or relying on surface sources that aren't thoroughly vetted, and without bias or underlying intent. 

(Says me, who couldn't tell the difference between a Longquan Celadon from the Ming Dynasty and a late Joseon Dynasty bowl if my entire life depended on it 😆)

Welp, my time is up for the week.
Hope all is well..

Best regards,
-JRN

Very well written good advice from JRN with a nice touch of good humour !

Michael

Thanks for taking the time to read @brettm

Also for the record (and per the "grain of salt" rule) I want to clarify that I'd be inclined to agree with you on the Edo appearance; but sadly due to my own misfortune (and tons of money spent "decoratively" in hindsight) will perhaps always be the nagging peanut gallery voicing caution; especially with how often I overlook what's an antique tributing another antique form of something, or a vintage piece in Japanese: but Tokkuris and Arita-wares specifically are a whole ballpark that've left me doubting the meaning of existence sometimes 🤣 

The aspects of the enameling, "soft" angles, and relaxed application on the piece overall would also indicate to me as well somewhere in the range of Edo, personally.

Also, per another grain of salt exception:
The Trocadero link that you personally provided was 100% valid (in my layman's opinion) as a comparison.
To my knowledge Mr. Kuwabara is a very highly respected and esteemed figure in the Japanese antiques community; with an equally amazing story of how he came to be a dealer (there's an interview out there somewhere I believe, a good read if you have a few minutes).
If he says something is Genroku Period: I'd take his word before most.

I've actually (as recently as the other month in one case) met some of the most genuine and reputable dealers on the Trocadero platform; who even if I did not interact with in the capacity of being a potential customer - were the first to give me a call and answer questions about the industry, technical aspects of pieces not related to their own offerings, and share their love and obvious passion very generously for their field. 
Recently I had offered to pay to send in a piece of Edo pottery in overseas to a seller on there with a very strong focus and reputation in that area; and even though he could've gladly took my money, he gave me a referral to a personal friend of his closer in-country who lectured in a similar field; and if I ever had any questions he was still available. 

Trocadero has quite a few "good old souls" still up and running like normal - being one of the earlier sites out there that many good dealers attached their galleries/shoppes to; and it offers a middle-ground for "semi-private" dealing I think (i.e. not having to list a piece for stated retail that would be better suited towards a small niche of collectors at subjective prices rather than market determined ones, and offering the visibility that those collectors can go find them on their own without a middle-man), but the problem has been the mass influx of more-or-less oblivious/ignorant dealers hoping to give off the same impression, and sadly some quite dubious ones these past few years growing in frequency - all with around the same visibility to the casual browser. 

I think we could chalk this up to the good ol' world of just "being the antiques business" with quality dealers/sellers, shady ones, and all levels between.

Sure, reputation does follow you; but a lot of people don't live by those rules sadly anymore.. 
Which is why I'm always probably cautious (to the point of overbearingly paranoid) of getting my comparisons from general retail sources; but hey - there's been cases where retailer dealers have been right, and "the big houses" have slipped up here and there; or call in those dealers as consultants for another opinion.

The moral of the story:
It's a porcelain poker playing palooza out there.
Sometimes you'll get lucky with seemingly little, sometimes you'll chase it all the way to the river knowing you shouldn't, mucked a hand too early that would've been a Full House, or played your cards just right and went with your gut. 

There's always going to be another hand, and the cards will fall however they will like the rounds prior; but over time you learn through good calls and bad beats how to read the landscape of the table a bit better here and there; and maybe you make a few friends along the way to share that and learn with. 

(Oh, and even if you're the dealer: the house still always wins in the end 😉) 

Enough clichés from this one; it's always good to log-in when able and learn, share, and experience this little slice of the arts world with you all.

Be blessed - and best regards,
-JRN

@jrn

Dear Jared,

Thank you first for sharing your knowledge with me/us. It's great to know someone out there on this forum who is serious with his collecting/business field. And thank you for this "shoddily offered history lesson with very little reward". It helps a lot! 👍 Just like you mentioned before, the whole Japanese ceramics is a huge topic and in my opinion very different from the Chinese. There are definitly similarities, but the whole system imo is different. Since my focus of collecting and dealing is on Chinese works of art, so I don't have more capacity and passion for other interesting fields. Since two weeks I have taken part in a seminar of Song ceramics given by a scholar and collector community from Hangzhou, Eastern China. There were thousands of kilns making similar wares and different qualities. It's impossible to know each single kiln and their products. Quote "We need focus and we don't collect everything."

I found this Tokkuri at a flea market, sold as Chinese vase for very little money. I know it's an old Japanese ware, so I bought it. I love old things generally, wether Asian or European antiques. Based on my experience I know it's a bargain 🙂 And I know it can be a good topic for the forum. We always need something to talk about and to learn from. It would be a disaster for this forum when only fakes are talked about. And you see, this time we learned a lot from you. Not only about Japanese wares, but also aspects of collecting and others.

Thank you again for this big help.

Best regards,

Xin

@JRN

Thank you JRN for your highly informative and detailed accounts of various types and styles of Japanese porcelain. 

@ Xin_Fawis

In addition to other members highly informative information I can only add that your tokkuri bottle is a most beautiful example of early Japanese porcelain. 

Mark 

@xin_fawas 
Thank you for the kind words and exchange..
I think that's the fun part of Asian art, or just art in general: always something new to learn and grow with 😊 

I always look up most to the people who are willing to admit when they don't know something; it shows humility and means they probably learned what they do know by asking the right people and still knowing how to if needed - shows they'd be good to learn from in turn.
The quote shared at your lecture about focus is very "take to heart" - nobody can know everything.

Japanese is indeed very different in many regards - but it also shares some in common with Chinese and others in many areas; which is why I'm always thrilled to learn more on here about Chinese wares to "connect the dots" that present themselves. 

(The birth of Arita-ware is largely said to have been started by Koreans captured during the Keicho War actually, and they fired up around Saga because the kaolin was "good like Chinese quality" ect - so even then, you see an example of two influences). 

And since you mentioned the shiver inducing (to me) words of "Song Ceramics", you may enjoy this read from the Kyoto National Museum on why China is essentially responsible for giving Seto the reputation as the first area (and for a long time) to glaze their ceramics in Japan.
https://www.kyohaku.go.jp/eng/dictio/touji/52seto.html
In fact, you'll notice heavy Qingbai influences on Japanese studio celadon potteries from some of the most regarded Japanese ceramic artists during the late 19th & 20th century; even today.

(They have an awesome database for all sorts of art by the way!)

The fact you got the "mistaken origin" bargain is just icing on the cake; and per my last post of clichés - you had a pretty good read on the landscape through your experience, made a call with your cards in hand, and took home the pot (well, the Tokkuri 😉 ).
(Also as @imperialfinegems said: a quite great looking one at that - I think anybody would be thrilled to walk away with such a piece; I know I would).

Thank you for sharing with me and all.
Best regards,
-JRN