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The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.
Basic Rules For the BidAmount Asian Art Forum: Talk about whatever you want. You can even discuss and offer things that are for sale if they are authentic.Maximum image file size per post is 2 MB. Images of 700pxl x 700pxl are optimal if saved at a medium resolution. Be respectful of others and enjoy yourself. Click the YouTube link for a brief tutorial on using the forum. You can also EMBED Videos by cutting and pasting from You-Tube, Vimeo etc.
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Hello guys, long time no see, last month I sent a jiajing blue and white bowl to sothebys for submission, 34 days are gone and still no reply, I am wondering what is going on, are they hesitated to tell if it is real or not, cause I did reach to them two times on their support, they told me they told the specialist concerned with my item, and I don't hear back, I sent another Qianlong Famille rose platter, and still nothing, usually they reply on me in a day to a week, this is weird:
here are the pictures of the items, both are from two different antique dealers in the USA.
1- the jiajing bowl:
2-the Famille rose platter:
someone who has quite good experience in Chinese antiques told me these are Excellent copies, but I am not sure. I'll appreciate any help from you guys:
🙂 It's been a while. Ibrahim you sent them in on Feb 6th, I am sure they are busy. The plate is beautifully painted. Good luck with it. As to whether it is fake, it is not fake, just might not be of the era.
@short-dong thank you men for replying, this is such a relief, thank you, the only thing that makes me suspicious that it could not be from the period is the mark, do you think this could be 19th century or early 20th? and how much do you think it's worth?
And as you said they could be busy, I forgot to add another picture
@short-dong thank you men for replying, this is such a relief, thank you, the only thing that makes me suspicious that it could not be from the period is the mark, do you think this could be 19th century or early 20th? and how much do you think it's worth?
And as you said they could be busy, I forgot to add another picture
what do you think about the bowl, any idea?
Wooah, I am the least expert here on that list of emails you mentioned, That is just my humble opinion. There are many much more experienced and skilled members on the forum that will be able to give you a better opinion.
In my opinion it is not fake, the prices for 19th century revival famille-rose mille-fleurs ( thousand flowers) vase and dishes never fetched more than a couple of thousand at the very best auction houses, and an artist this brilliant, and in more modern times; could make more legitimate money elsewhere such as actually working in modern porcelain factories.
That is my logic as to why this is not 'an excellent fake'.
Mark and period Qianlong Mille fluer on the other hand do sell for large sums of money. Perhaps you feel the mark was placed to try make it appear like a qianlong?
My logic: 19th Century revival famille-rose mille-fleurs have the Iron red qianlong mark too so it does seem like pointless thing to put this mark there. As it is at worst a late 19th century revival and the mark wont sway it one way or another. Did some 'eejit' paint the base green and stick on the Iron red qianlong mark, and if so then it was not to fool a big auction house, but maybe a selected naive buyer.
So what it is...I do not have the expertise to say. I am guessing someone can tell by the colours used and the style what era it is from.
It would be great if it was a qianlong and you need to determine why it is not Qianlong and not just rely on people opinions an appraisals because people can be wrong. You need always to determine the real specific reason/reasons it is not qianlong. You are good at finding beautiful things and should knuckle down and learn the art of appraisal.
It is worth something for sure but much much more if it was Qianlong mark and period and I hope it is.
The Jiajing cup loks authentic to me but I'm not certain. The mille fleur dish I don't know but if it's Qianlong mark and period then it's valuable. I think it's most likely later.
This post was modified 3 years ago 2 times by avatar
A finefamille-rosemille-fleurstray, seal mark and period of Qianlong (1736-1795);19.3 cm, 7 5/8 in.Estimate 2,400,000 — 3,200,000 HKD (305,592 - 407,456 USD).Lot Sold 3,500,000 HKD (445,655 USD). Courtesy Sotheby's.
That dish @avatar posted above sold for close to half a million. I can understand why this matters 🙂
I think the gold background would indicate that that it's Guangxu or republic period and that the Qianlong mark is apocryphal. If so then it's probably not a piece for Sotheby's but still a good piece with some value to it.
@avatar is correct, on millefleur more densely clustered flowers with no background visible are the standard for older pieces, when a background is visible they are typically late 19th, early 20th.
I’m having a hard time understanding your question? Do you believe these are mark and period? As for Sotheby’s they get thousands of entries 99 percent fakes without providence you shouldn’t expect much. I won’t speak on the unglazed blue and white I believe there are more experienced members to answer your question. As for the plate I have concerns about it yes it’s very well painted but the construction is not right in my eyes. The mark is off and sloped this is modern writing technique. the blue glaze looks 20th century and the base looks way to matte. When I look into the rendering I see PROC elements. I would suggest looking at Watersilk dragon she has a large database on Republic and 20th century painting techniques of flowers it will probably narrow a timeline.
The painting style/overall composition and mark writing on the Jiajing marked bowl indicates this is not period and a much later copy ...
The writting of the base Qianlong mark would also indicate this is not period and a later piece, but theze late pieces are really not my area so I will defer to others regarding attribution dating ...
It isn't absolutely true about space between flowers typically being found on later pieces, I will post a link below. However, I agree, not Qianlong, as much as anything the flowers are painted incorrectly. It could be a more recent example with an apocryphal mark but I am bothered by the way the blue base goes onto the outer edge of the foot. I have not seen that before. There seems no wear either.
@kaolin well that's what I am thinking, besides the old lady that owns this bowl told me that it was evaluated from Bonham's auction house as a mark and period bowl and they gave it a value of 2500$, but I forgot to ask here when this evaluation took place, but according to the value they gave her I think it was appraised in the early 2000s, perhaps there is different rendering levels in the jiajing period so maybe @ming1449 didn't get it right on this one, I'm not saying this story of evaluation is 100% real or no, but it could really happen, and this woman has no other mark and period pieces, as dishonest dealers usually have a load of proclaimed mark and period pieces.
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Topics and categories on The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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Basic Rules For the BidAmount Asian Art Forum: Talk about whatever you want. You can even discuss and offer things that are for sale if they are authentic. Maximum image file size per post is 2 MB. Images of 700pxl x 700pxl are optimal if saved at a medium resolution. Be respectful of others and enjoy yourself. Click the YouTube link for a brief tutorial on using the forum. You can also EMBED Videos by cutting and pasting from You-Tube, Vimeo etc. 
