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Could it possibly be an authentic Zhengde period example? https://www.adams.ie/87806/A-BLUE-AND-WHITE-ZHADOU-Zhengde-mark-1506-1521-the-bulbous-body-and-wide-flaring-trumpet-neck-painted-in-a-soft-underglaze-blue-with-four-dragons-floating-through-scrolling-lotus-over-a-short-fl?high_estimate=60000&ipp=All&keyword=&low_estimate=50&view=lot_detail
Just adding links to the similar examples sold at Sotheby's and Christie's mentioned in the description. Might see if I can find the one from Nagel later on. http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.60.html/2011/the-meiyintang-collection-an-important-selection-of-imperial-chinese-porcelains-hk0371 http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2019/selected-imperial-ceramics-from-the-tianminlou-collection-hk0867/lot.13.html https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-blue-and-white-dragon-jar-zhadou-5831092-details.aspx?from=salesummery&intObjectID=5831092&sid=aa37cc7e-61f4-4b96-a763-2b35ca893141
Hi Avatar/Cory -
The Adams 'zhadou' is not Zhengde mark and period, but a copy of such and probably fairly recent ...
The painting style and numerous elements within the overall composition are wrong, and each individual character of the four-character mark contains many stroke errors ...
Stuart
Many thanks for your reply. I almost knew that you would join in on this one, Stuart. Bit I find it rather strange with the high estimate and the lot description that implies that the jar is possibly a mark and period example. I mean if it really is just a fairly recent copy like you say, I would almost consider this to be scam. A reputable auction should be able to identify modern fakes and certainly not estimate them at 50,000 euro if there is the just the slightest doubt about the authenticity.
To quote from the desciption at ADAM'S: "A number of such vessels are known, and they exhibit some variation in the tone of their cobalt blue, which may range from a pale sky blue to a dark midnight blue; for an example of the former, compare the zhadou from the Meiyintang Collection auctioned by Sothebys, Hong Kong, 7 April 2011, lot 60, and of the latter, compare that auctioned by Christies, Hong Kong, 7 October 2014, lot 3329. Tonal variation is perhaps a less surprising feature of these vessels when it is borne in mind that during the Zhengde reign, cobalt pigment was being variously sourced; a reference in an annal of 1515 notes that at that time, local cobalt was being used, but by the latter part of the reign, imported cobalt had been introduced once more. The colour tone of the present lot compares more closely to that of the Meiyintang example cited above; even more striking, however, is the near identical match provided by a zhadou offered by Nagel, Stuttgart, in their Asian Art sale of 8 December 2014. In terms of its height, proportion, and the execution of its reign mark, as well as in its use of a cobalt pigment producing a lighter, sky blue colour tone in the firing, the Nagel vessel offers the closest possible point of comparison to the one under review here."
And have you noticed that description is actually signed by 'Prof. Alan. J Fletcher, MRIA'? We have someone here of the same name who is actually located in Dublin in Ireland and whose occupation is as a university lecturer. I wonder if that person is still around and would like to join in and give us pedigree details about the jar in case you actually are the one and same person.
Alan fletcher is indeed a member of this forum and also associated with Adam's auctions in Dublin from memory regarding some nephrite jade they had on offer.
Haven't heard from Alan in a while.
Mark
Thanks! Might see if I can reach him with a PM or via ADAM'S later on to get his comment. But this must be the jar from Nagel:
I could only find it via this link that shows the highlights of their 25 years jubilee auction: https://www.auction.de/highlights_717_e.php
But I was thinking if the jar at ADAM'S could possibly be a 19/20th ct. copy rather than a modern repro. I have recently encountered some Xuande marked blue and white pieces that made me wonder. Like this blue and white dragon jar from Poly that is stated to come from the Meiyintang Collection. In the description it says that it's Xuande period but then further down in the remarks is says that the four-character Xuande mark is apocryphal. Kind of confusing. And while the estimate was only HKD 100,000 - 150,000 the sale price landed at HKD 2,478,000 - probably the price that certain people would pay for a suspected mark and period example. https://www.polyauction.com.hk/en/buy-and-sell/auctions/lot-listings/234/details/34968/?currencyType=USD And then there is this Xuande marked blue and white dragon stem cup stated to be a 19/20th ct. example at Rob Michiels Auctions. Unfortunately the pre-sale estimate is not available online. https://www.rm-auctions.com/en/asian-arts-i--ii/12443-a-chinese-blue-and-white-dragon-stem-cup-xuande-mark-19-20th-c And finally there was an auction somewhere recently which included a very nice Xuande marked blue and white dragon bowl that sold just slightly below a couple of Jiajing marked pieces that to me lokked like mark and period examples. That sale is probably the real reason why I started this thread to begin with. I might add pictures of these pieces later on to get opinion on them.
All the best
/Corey
Here are some better pictures of the jar at Nagel. In the link the estimate is quoted to be 80,000 euro. https://alaintruong2014.wordpress.com/2014/11/16/a-fine-imperial-blue-and-white-porcelain-zhadouchina-zhengde-four-character-mark-and-period/ And then it seems there's one further example at Sotheby's that possibly compares better even with the tone of color and painting style, but with an estimate at only £30,000 - £50,000 and sold within the estimate. https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2019/important-chinese-art-l19210/lot.53.html?cmp=syndication__barnebys_53_15-may-2019&utm_source=barnebys&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=barnebys&utm_content=2019-05-15 And then I have found a few more doubtful examples at various doubtful auctions but I think that posting links to these would be going to far for now.
So here are some pictures of the Xuande marked bowl I had in mind. (Interestingly they have already been copied to a Chinese site who claim to have the bowl for sale.)
And here is bowl from the same sale that I belive is likely a Jiajing mark and period example.
Hi Avatar/Cory -
Having spent some time comparing the Adams piece with images of three examples in the Gugong, Beijing, two in the NPM, Taiwan, several reconstructed examples excavated from the Imperial kiln site, the piece in the Meiyintang collection and another from the Ira and Nancy Koger collection, sold Lot 245, Christies NY, 19th September 2006 I still believe the Adams example is wrong for the reasons previously given, IMO ...
As for the cited Sothebys example, sold May last year, I viewed/handled this piece along with several other collectors and dealers, two with over 40 years experience, and we all thought this piece was also 'wrong' ...
It is known that fake examples of these Zhengde vessels types have been around for the last 10 or so years ...
Stuart
Thanks for the reply. I must say that I'm not really convinced the jar at Adam's is modern or 19/20th ct. but I'm not convinced it's period either. The thing is that if you compare the bases of Adam's jar with the base of the jar at Nagel you can see that the footrings and the caligraphic style of the marks is very similar. And the caligraphic style also matches well with the mark of the jar sold in May, 2019 at Sotheby's, which you say looked 'wrong' when you handled it. The painting style of those three jars also look very similar in my opinion. But maybe the jar at Nagel is in fact also a later copy? Who knows for sure?
Now after posting and thinking it over for a little while, I actually think the jar at Adam's is most likely a mark and period example. Unless the jars at Nagel and Sotheby's are also later copies, and I personally find a little hard to belive.
But anyway - if I may get back to the sale of the Xuande and Jiajing marked bowls I posted. The same auctioneer have now listed a Chenghua marked blue and white piece that is similar to a piece from the Wolch collection unsold at I. M Chait and to an excavated example at Henan museum. Any opinions on that one?
Can't seem to find the direct link to the sale at I. M. Chait so I use this link in stead:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/i-m-chait-gallery/catalogue-id-srchai10001/lot-92aa8fb3-b04b-42bb-bc70-a5bf00ab2829 The piece at Henan museum:
Hi Cory -
I respect but, humbly, disagree with you opinion of the Adams piece ...
As for the Chenghua dish posted, your cite a piece at the Henan Museum. This dish, reconstructed from Chenghua layers unearthed from the Imperial kiln site in 1987, is from the collection of the Jingdezhen Ceramic Archaeological Research Institute ...
From the image posted, can you see why this piece was rejected, destroyed and then buried ...
Stuart
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