Love  to Alejandro

The all-encompassing, unconditional, divine love is omnipresent!

Dear alegjanac,

If you do finally decide to ask Oxford Authentication to run a TL test on your moon flask, please let us know the results of their analysis.

Best wishes,

Alan

Dear Alan,

Ok

Dear Alejandro,

I strongly recommend you to send a mail with pictures to Marchant, for example. It will cost nothing and I am sure it will save you some money.

Giovanni

PS: Unless, ofcourse, you privilege a scientific test, which is known can fail, against the opinion of absolutely top experts.

Bs:   can fail !   ???   

  I am always intersted to get more details and facts , better examples tests objects who have failed ?

What have failed ?    Restored ? Overpainted  ? so called Pastiche -mixed together -

Dear Giovanni,

You are saying that the experts opinion dont fail, but the scientific test yes? jajajajajajaj ? . Excuse me but i am sincere

Giovanni experts opinion usually are conditionated, first for their limitations as humans being, second for their interests, specially about the pieces of the others. Sometimes someone pays them better for selling one piece and for stopping others. And you know perfectly...

About money I prefer spend money in scientific test of datation, in fact the yongle moonflask have suffered all the scientific test possibles (TL TEST, ICP MS, EDXRF) all sucessfull and documented in all process, than paying for opinion of experts. Because i dont only want to sell, i want to know first if the piece is really authentic and after to sell them. Honesty first than money. Anyway i want to do an inform article with two professors of University of Pekin about the piece. 

In my opinion if an expert don respect the science reports is not an expert is a speculator. Dont surprise if you dont respect the scientific results that nobody with a certain intellectual capacity respect your opinions. its logical. I dont say for you, i am saying in general. If i auction again in Paris and you visit the city, please contact with me and i will show in person the piece or pieces or I will do someone show you in person. its pleasure listening opinions of the piece in hand, write the observations and analyze them. By other side you could see in person how is a red copper colour scientifically tested, the touch of a verified glazed of a ming piece from yongle period. Sure you can learn something with this piece. Can i ask you how many yongles moonflask in red copper have you touch, with all the scientific tests? I know you reject the piece, and you are doing honesty. I accept it. But why dont you give only one opportunity to the piece, if it has so many tests? i can not understand your actitude because  if its true that a yongle moonflask is really a rare piece, more in red copper, very rare but imagine that the science, the two labs are done fine its work and the piece is authentic.  When you see a piece of this style the first thing that came to your head, in my case is fake!!. After you begin to receive scientific information and perhaps you see in different way.

Everybody can have their opinion of the datation of a piece and its fine. But if you have a scientific test of datation well done, the good expertization begin with this fact, the age, at least ming, yuan and before. I recognize that qing is more difficult for tl test. Here would be interesting to know the opinion of Oxford lab too (about Ralf Kotalla we know). Can someone invit oxford to participate here? After i agree than the expert classifie the piece, explain the piece, determine its importance, its value... But you should give an opportunity to the science to participate and develope expertization.

I agree with you that if you want to obtain a good price selling a piece is important to contact with the final or big sellers. About this i have the information that you gave me. I thank you. Now I recognize that they have the power to decide what sell or not. You know better than me, and you say me they dont accept the scientific test. Ok. Anyway i want to speak with them, to make contacts, to learn about the porcelain market. I have never before sold pieces only i have bought. But i think i will contact.

Best

I find it hilarious that someone who values science so much, isn't open to the possibility that fakers have found a way to fake aging that is harder to detect than the capabilities that their lab currently has. Of course, admitting that is not going to get the lab more customers, so that kind of honesty is not something we can expect to hear other than in hushed conversations around the water cooler.

IF the poster is even a representative of Lab Kotalla, and not a shill account from Alejandro, to add some legitimacy to his fake vase. I have not seen a shred of evidence yet that would suggest so. Rather, the lack of coherent syntax in the way that both posters express themselves, would suggest that that is a real possibility.

@plcombs Would you mind looking into that?

I have read this thread with intense interest from its inception.

It appears that the majority of experts have questioned the validity of the TL test conducted. The only one who is sitting on the fence is Alan. Giovanni and Xin jointly slam the report along with others. They have prepared compelling arguments in favour of said item being a fake.

I find it interesting that a fellow blogger using the name of LabKotalla GbR appears to confirm that the test is authentic and indeed conducted by said Laboratory. Convinced?

I am not convinced. There is something very wrong going on here surrounding the sale of said flask, Provence and lastly the so-called test conducted.

The original poster of this thread, alejance is not looking for opinions. He is seeking confirmation. Giovanni is not a speculated this person his. His dubious purchase from a little known auction house in the hope of a big return. That's speculation.

The so-called Provence of being in the property of a well known French collection. The poster refers numerous times to said but has not revealed more details. The imperative question being. Well who?

I have dealt with these so-called Provence issues before from unscrupulous auction houses not revealing said details. It is a claim full of air. Any right giving auction house/seller would release said details to the prospective buyers. No secret or issues of privacy in my opinion. There are issues with fraudulent vague statements stating same.

I have no idea if this item is real or not. I am not an expert on Chinese porcelain as I have outlined many times.

I suspect that this item is not authentic. I also suspect there is no legitimate Provence as claimed. I also suspect that the TL test conducted is also fraudulent along with both the said posters in order to try and drum up unsuspecting clients to buy this item.

If the item is too good to be true it normally is. Greed!

The circumstances surrounding this whole thread stink to high heaven. I normally see a con. One only has too look at the certified copy that has in part been filed here. 

I fully understand that the experts do on occasions get things wrong. I do not believe this is one of them.

I have taken the unusual step to contact said Laboratory for their comments on said threa therein. I shall let members know the outcome.

 I am also aware that I will in all probability come under fire from the original poster. No problem there thats why I have waited till now and not before to post my opinion for what it is worth.

Mark

Dear Mark,

As you are waiting my answer "come under fire from the original poster", i fill obliged to answer you, but not with fire, only with logical arguments and explanations. I have tried to explain allways with respect my opinion, always based in facts, in logical arguments, never in fire.

I repeat you "In my opinion if an expert don respect the science reports is not an expert is a speculator. Dont surprise if you dont respect the scientific results that nobody with a certain intellectual capacity respect your opinions. its logical." This is not an attack or i dont see as attack. I apply it myself too.

You say that you have waited to the end to conclude that all about my yongle moonflask is very rare, so, you say that i put this post only for confirm the authenticity, but that the piece is a fraud and the different tests conducted are fraudulents. You say that Ralph Kotalla who participate in this chat, is only a fake nick, that  kotalla dont participate and dont confirm the authenticity of the test.

NOW YOU SHOULD PHONE HIM AND VERIFY. His mobile number is 00491716228521. His office number0049747495360. You can contact with him today i suposse. I would thank you if you inform about results.

You say that the provenance is not from an old and well known french collection. That probably cost me low money so when i bought the piece i did for wining many money. And that i fake the test results with the agreement of laboratory.

This last thing is serious. Do you have proofs? Its a crime to fake a scientific test. Falsely accuse of faking too. Why do you think i fake the tests. Contact the laboratories, and verify please.

I have explained that the provenance that i have is from and old french collection. You say no. Ok I can be wrong. I recognized that my document can be faked. As i have explained i can not  demonstrate who where the previous owners. But what i can support is that my piece is  authentic following the scientific test. If you say the scientific test are wrong, say me in whics pages, in which points, and we can begin to speak. You say i have published only part of the tests, not complete tests. Its false THE TEST ARE COMPLETE PUBLISHED. Now i hang again, but they were complete published a long this forum.

TL TEST (Ralf Kotalla 02B041018)

Link to ICP MS and EDXRF (Hebolabo. Investigation Report 28631)

I advice you to be calm and i would thank you if you inform here about the results of your phone calls.

Best

Thanks for your prompt reply.

Firstly I never said the provenance was faked by you. I asked who was the alleged French collector. If you don't know then it is not reliable and would be meaningless if not fraudulent fake etc. A number of low key auction houses use such terms as mentioned by you.

If you do know release the details. Simple.

As to contact with said laboratory, I have already forwarded an email requesting further information. I am waiting for an official reply. I shall if they do reply, post a response here.

I do however find it extraordinary that a well-known laboratory in the same league as Oxford would file a bogus report. I don't know them as I have never needed said.

I am interested in knowing where, when and how much you paid for this item. If it is as has already been suggested by a sleuth here, purchased for $3500 against an estimate of hundreds of thousands if dollars. Does that not ring any bells for you. That's not mentioning the numerous other so-called rare items in the sane auction that failed to get bids/sold.

If this item is what you think it is then I am very happy for you.

Analysis by the mentioned leading dealers should give you the final answer, unless you want to go to Oxford.

Mark

Dear Alejanac and Mr. Kotalla,

I can't call myself expert, but I know about Chinese ceramics. I have been studying about Chinese ceramics for many years now and I have still a lot to learn. I would not judge something which I don't know about. What I know now from this thread that you and Mr. Kotalla have no idea about Chinese ceramics. Once again, SCIENCE IS ONLY A THEORY, NOT THE TRUTH.

Learn something at home, visit some exhibitions of museums and talk to some "true" big dealers, then you will have happiness and enjoy art. 

Lieber Herr Kotalla,

Was soll ich dazu sagen?!  Sie werden eines Tages dafür teuer bezahlen. Wünsch Ihnen alles Gute.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Xin

Dear imperialfinegems,

I dont pay 3.500 jajaja i pay more!!! sometime ago!!!. How much i dont going to say in public, and my seller didnt say me howmuch payed him. By other side i never have bought in China chinese porcelains. I have my reasons to think is not a good idea. Better small sellers in Europe for good prices.

I agree with you that is very suspicius that pieces ming with a great value are in sold in liveauctioneers and invaluable in 2000 and 3000 usd. I think most of them (more than 95% being generous) are copies. About the auction you refer with pictures similar to my piece, I have checked the auction and i prefer dont speak. I dont want more complications and wars.

I have one name and surname in the provenance. I will give the document to the buyer.

I hope you check with the Ralph Kotalla lab, that the analysis scientific that i have published here are authentic, that i didnt fake it. That they are complete as they were made. If you want to contact with HEBOLABO for me is fine, too. I hope your post.

And yes, now or oxford or heavy seller or keep at home. I think my expert should help me to decide too. What I dont understand is why when you have a tl test from Kotalla you have to confirm in Oxford, in the sense that i can do it with this piece that is a very rare piece (I think they are the most famous labs) , but with others pieces too?. But when you have a tl test of oxford do you have to confirm with Kotalla too? In France the most common is QED Lab, but i think people accept Oxford and Kotalla too. In Uk, people ask Oxford, dont they? I suposse all of them have the same protocols and I suposse all depends of experience.

Best

Dear Xim.

You said that you are an expert, and that me and Ralf know nothing about chinese porcelain. You say you have studie a lot. Ok. I believe you. I am sure you have a big knowledge.

how is possible that you say you have study a lot and you dont mind scientific test?. I think that If you dont mind scientific test you have to study more. The traditional way of expertization is by eye, and perhaps is realiable. But the modern expertization usually use scientific test and is quite more reliable. If you go to the museum of Taipei they write in some porcelain pieces why they believe theeir pieces are authentics. Its really nice and interesting, ink, glaze... Ok the scientific test can inform you about the elements you have to study in a very deep way to determine if its authentic.

About Kotalla possible he is not an expert in chinese porcelain as you. But he is an expert in datation pottery and porcelain. Probably one of the best experts in datation with Ms. Doreen of Oxford. So if he say, after repeat the Thermoluminiscence process three times, that the vase is about 590 years old, i think there are 99% of possibilities that the vase has made between 500 to 700 years old.

Anyway i am tired because all of as are repeating and repeating the same arguments.

I believe it was Alan Fletcher who suggested Oxford. Hence the big boys preference. Not mine.

As I said I don't know either of the two nor have I dealt with them etc.

Personally I would contact the two aforementioned respected dealers and be swayed by what they in their wisdom despot upon you.

I value the opinions of Xin, Giovanni, and Alan with the highest regard beyond reproach.

It is odd, I must say, to have two almost identical items in the same condition offered for sale at about the same time.

My knowledge is limited when it comes to porcelain, especially Yongle period. I am a former gemologist/pawnbroker etc and my main interest in asian art is nephrite jade and jadeite jade along with ivory. The later not so much these days given the backlash of recent times.

But I am learning something new nearly everyday thanks to a lot of time on my hands to view,read and other along with still a fast learner especially with my new friends at this forum.

Mark

Posted by: alejanac

Dear Xim.

You said that you are an expert, and that me and Ralf know nothing about chinese porcelain. You say you have studie a lot. Ok. I believe you. I am sure you have a big knowledge.

how is possible that you say you have study a lot and you dont mind scientific test?. I think that If you dont mind scientific test you have to study more. The traditional way of expertization is by eye, and perhaps is realiable. But the modern expertization usually use scientific test and is quite more reliable. If you go to the museum of Taipei they write in some porcelain pieces why they believe theeir pieces are authentics. Its really nice and interesting, ink, glaze... Ok the scientific test can inform you about the elements you have to study in a very deep way to determine if its authentic.

About Kotalla possible he is not an expert in chinese porcelain as you. But he is an expert in datation pottery and porcelain. Probably one of the best experts in datation with Ms. Doreen of Oxford. So if he say, after repeat the Thermoluminiscence process three times, that the vase is about 590 years old, i think there are 99% of possibilities that the vase has made between 500 to 700 years old.

Anyway i am tired because all of as are repeating and repeating the same arguments.

I didn't say I'm an expert. I said, quote myself " I can't call myself expert, but I know about Chinese ceramics."

It's NOT about science, it's about ART.  ?  It's a forum about Asian art not European science.

Xin