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Dear Alejandro,
sorry to be so explicit, but all this discussion about reliability/utility of scientific analysis is completely useless if you continue in not answering to the BIG question, the fact that your vase was on sale at a certainly not reliable Chinese auction house only three months before Kotalla’s test. It is the same vase, you can’t ignore that.
And please consider also the b&w copy that I have shown, again on sale at very low price.
Giovanni
I also would mistrust an expert opinion that entirely disregards scientific testing in its appraisal. At the very least the expert at the drouot auction could have pointed out the discrepancy, much as Alan has done, and not just pronounce it a fake on expert knowledge alone without a look into the tests or having a valid reason for disbelieving the scientific evidence.
Reading this thread it seems experts and egos and interests may be more a liability than an asset to the field and the auction houses would do well to find better ones. For every too-big-for-their-boots expert there is many others that have no such shortcomings. It may also be that under pressure and by the nature of the work they are not allowed to give an inconclusive verdict, but must rely on what they know best -their expertise, which is what they are there for. I don’t think they are employed to look at all aspects of authenticity, but as experts and with such definite vote they should.
I don’t think the final say should be on one person only, the expert, especially when there is contradictory information or doubt. If it is a panel that looks into all aspects of authentication that would make more sense. It is interesting to see the workings of the auctions / markets, how it is done and how it can go so wrong. There is such unprotected risk to the owner in this case, as Alan has said. Considering the fees charged when a sale is made, that can’t be right.
I agree with Kotalla that such elaborate and exact faking process to make such exact fake would be time consuming and not worth it. But following Clayandbrush thinking that such process is easily done in China, then i wonder: if that were the case, why bother to go into such detailed faking on such specific scientific markers and then totally fail to properly fake the hand and the colour.
If they were to have the means and skill to reproduce exactly the mineral composition and ageing and bubbles, firing, etc, how can they then fail to use a skilled painter and also weather the red to be more uneven and grey as it would be if of the period, as Xin has pointed out. And also, i think such a fake would be a pretty amazing item in itself.
In terms of the C.I.P. auction of the same vase, i agree with alejanac that judging their items to be all fake only by photos seems hasty, but also i would say that i would not entirely assume that it is the same vase. I mean that the vase depicted may be the very same, but I would not say that it then follows that this listing is actually legit.
I don’t find proof that the item was properly purchased, or that if it was, then that the buyer received the item, or that the item received was then same as in the listing, or that the photos are actually of an item the auctioners have, and not just photos of an item. I mean that if the auction site is believed to list all fakes, then perhaps the listings themselves cannot then automatically be assumed to be all real either.
It may still be possible that Alejanac’s moon-flask has never been anywhere near cip, but somehow its photos are, thats worrying enough for other reasons. This is a useful link Corey found but I’m not sure it sheds light on this item, or rather on the trappings that could be made.
I agree with Mark and Kotalla on all aspects of authentication and i will also agree with Julia and Shinigami that gut feeling is a good indicator too, although i think this is more to do with your own experiences and taste, if you have a good feeling about an item you may buy it anyway even if other markers show it fake, because you like it for what it is, it may not really help authenticate, though it helps your personal decisions, which i think experts also rely on.
Dear Giovanni,
If you recognize that the science afirm that my piece is authentic, an authentic yongle mionflask following TL test, ICPMS test and EDXRF test done in two different laboratories, i Will speak of provenance.
But be Justice, recognize the piece have more guarantees that you can imagine.
Imagine that the provenance is from PERU and what mind if is authentic?
Anyway the seller have answered me that is from a french old collection.
About the blue and White moonflask to be sincere se should do TL test. But i think is fake, for the kind of blue used is not fine i think, the reflects of the glaze, the compositión is absokutely exact, difficult in a Hand painted compositión...i dont think taipei museum have bought It and is the same.
Only a opinion
There is a BBC programme called ‘Fake or Fortune’. It shows the extraordinary lengths people have to go to in order to have works of art authenticated. It may help us understand how the process of authentication works and the (small but significant) role that testing has in the process. Scientific tests are a part of the jigsaw, not the whole picture.
Regardless of what the tests show, unless experts agree that it is authentic it will not be accepted as authentic. As I said before, I think Alejanac’s time would be better spent tracing the provenance rather than demanding that testing alone should be enough. It is not enough and is unlikely to ever be enough when the piece itself has so much about it that doesn’t look right to experts, collectors and auction house.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M6astDk_qv8
Dear Nixe,
gut feeling does not mean for me that I buy something just because I like it, although I know it could be a fake. It means I don't buy an item even if it comes loaded with provenance and lab reports if I have the feeling that the decoration or another detail is not right.
Birgit
Dear NicDan,
Only i want to inform you that not all the experts and auction house think that my red yongle moonflask is fake. Saint Germain auction house put in auction because they think is authentic. The expert in oriental art of the auction house, after study the scientific test, conclude that the piece is ming yongle period or very early xuande period. The problem was another expert came two hours earlier the auction (not of the auction house (12:00 am) and say that the piece "was not probably authentic". When the scientific tests were shown to him, he said at 13:15 that the piece "was probably authentic but not sure". So its complicated, because nothing is sure.
About provenance if i get demonstrate that the piece is from one hundred years in France, this dont guarantee is authentic. I am sure the same experts will keep say the same things. By other side is very difficult to demonstrate provenance because the seller can lie me about it and the documents that i have i am not sure they are good. So i prefer to know if its authentic or not. Usually, when i have doubts about authenticity of a piece i do a tl test or when someone support his piece is authentic i usually do a tl test too.
By other side i am realizing that the porcelain market is singular, and i dont know how it work with it. Sure i need help. Anyway thanks for your advice!
Red Painting With Horses (above) a forgery by Wolfgang Beltracchi, supposedly by Campendonk, was sent to Dr. Nicholas Eastaugh’s Art Analysis & Research London laboratory in 2008. Dr. Eastaugh had almost immediate success in the lab.
‘The electron magniscope picked something up very early on,’ he reveals.
‘Beltracchi had used white titanium.’
The painting was dated 1914. White titanium was introduced after 1916. The difference was only two years.
‘But,’ Dr. Eastaugh says, ‘there was no escaping from it. I knew I had him.’ - Article in Daily Mail
The Beltracchi case
The number of forgeries in circulation is highly disputed as accurate information is impossible to obtain. However, such percentages are not important when it is your artwork or your investment at stake. Traditionally, attributions have been made by connoisseurs with specialist knowledge in the work of a specific artist. No matter how expert, relying on only one type of examination is a risky proposition.
Provenance research can supply valuable supporting evidence, although this too is fallible as it is often incomplete and can itself be faked, as can authentication “certificates”, devised in an attempt to lend connoisseurial opinion a tangible, quasi-official aspect. The extent of the problem can be seen in the news media; in the last few years, most European countries have experienced at least one serious forgery case, giving the impression that this is only the tip of the iceberg. Germany has been the home of what is perhaps the most notorious case of all: that involving the forgeries of Wolfgang Beltracchi.
Dr. Nicolas Eastaugh, Chief Scientist at Art Analysis & Research, played a leading and critical role in the downfall of Wolfgang Beltracchi, possibly the highest earning art forgery of all time. By conducting material analysis of pigments in a painting alleged to be by Heinrich Campendonk, Dr. Eastaugh was able to conclusively identify it as a forgery. The painting had reached the highest price for a work by “Campendonk” at auction, although it was a creation of Beltracchi.
After the sale, the painting was questioned by the expert in charge of Campendonk’s catalogue raisonné. It was then sent to Art Analysis & Research where it was found to contain titanium white in its preparation layers, a pigment not yet invented in the year the artwork should have been made. As the extent of Beltracchi’s work slowly came to light, connoisseurs opinions alome were brought into question as connoisseurs had “authenticated” numerous Ernst paintings, actually produced by Beltracchi. Many collectors realized their mistakes only too late and were left with no recourse to obtain a refund as the time window to do so had closed.
The Beltracchi case
The number of forgeries in circulation is highly disputed as accurate information is impossible to obtain. However, such percentages are not important when it is your artwork or your investment at stake. Traditionally, attributions have been made by connoisseurs with specialist knowledge in the work of a specific artist. No matter how expert, relying on only one type of examination is a risky proposition.
Provenance research can supply valuable supporting evidence, although this too is fallible as it is often incomplete and can itself be faked, as can authentication “certificates”, devised in an attempt to lend connoisseurial opinion a tangible, quasi-official aspect. The extent of the problem can be seen in the news media; in the last few years, most European countries have experienced at least one serious forgery case, giving the impression that this is only the tip of the iceberg. Germany has been the home of what is perhaps the most notorious case of all: that involving the forgeries of Wolfgang Beltracchi.
Dr. Nicolas Eastaugh, Chief Scientist at Art Analysis & Research, played a leading and critical role in the downfall of Wolfgang Beltracchi, possibly the highest earning art forgery of all time. By conducting material analysis of pigments in a painting alleged to be by Heinrich Campendonk, Dr. Eastaugh was able to conclusively identify it as a forgery. The painting had reached the highest price for a work by “Campendonk” at auction, although it was a creation of Beltracchi.
After the sale, the painting was questioned by the expert in charge of Campendonk’s catalogue raisonné. It was then sent to Art Analysis & Research where it was found to contain titanium white in its preparation layers, a pigment not yet invented in the year the artwork should have been made. As the extent of Beltracchi’s work slowly came to light, connoisseurs opinions alome were brought into question as connoisseurs had “authenticated” numerous Ernst paintings, actually produced by Beltracchi. Many collectors realized their mistakes only too late and were left with no recourse to obtain a refund as the time window to do so had closed.
Hi Alejanac,
you have just outlined perfectly your own predicament without acknowledging the problem. You have people changing their mind all the time about its authenticity, so the solution is not to try and convince people by having endless testing done, the testing alone will not be enough to convince the unconvinced.
Of course, if it has been in a French collection for 100 years then getting official provenance can’t do any harm. You need a portfolio of tests, provenance and expert opinions all confirming authenticity. Even then, as Shinigami rightly says, many still won’t want to buy it because it doesn’t look rightto them. There is nothing you can do about that.
If you bought the vase directly from the French estate then getting verifiable provenance should be straightforward. If, however, you purchased it from someone who claims to have purchased it from a French estate then it is possible that the provenance is worthless.
It appears that you are withholding information that you know will support the suspicions that the vase is not what you think it is. Unfortunately, this will not work in the long-run. It is pointless trying to convince people that the testing is enough. You will not change how the authentication process works. You need to look at the demands for authentication and try to meet each criteria, not just one.
I am new to Chinese porcelain but I have been a collector and dealer for 15 years. The process is the same whether it is paintings, sculpture, ceramics - whatever. I have been down this road myself, sometimes you succeed, sometimes you don’t. One thing you will not be able to do is to get people to accept that the vase is not a fake by using scientific testing alone when there are so many other doubts about it. I’m sorry, but that’s just how it is.
Of course, experts can be wrong and some are not reputable. Trying to prove that all expert opinion is wrong or biased or flawed is not a good way to get you flask authenticated. It is likely to cause a lot of offence and ensure that your flask, whatever it is, never gets accepted anywhere.
Best wishes
Nic
Dear nixe,
About the ink used in the painting in my moonflask was studied in the HEBOLAB research report.
Looks pags 6, 7 and 11.
At least we know that the red colour quemical composition was the used in yongle period during Ming dynasty.
The complete inform is attached in the first post of this forum
Dear Alejandro,
you said that “If you recognize that the science affirm that my piece is authentic, an authentic yongle moonflask following TL test, ICPMS test and EDXRF test done in two different laboratories, i Will speak of provenance.”
OFCOURSE I recognize that the science affirm that your piece is authentic! To be precise, by science I am in this case referring to the TL test only, because the other ones are just listing the “list of ingredients”, nothing more. Nothing to do with dating! Instead, TL test has to do with dating and I recognize that it says that your vase is antique. But I also recognize, although I do not know the reason, that it can fail. That is admitted by scientists too. There are some unexplained cases at present knowledge.
Resuming, your vase is authentic according to science but not according to me and I am sure that if you show it to the very few really experts (those high end dealers) they will tell you instantly that it is a copy and they will not consider the scientific test. Not because they do not believe in science, but because of the same said reason, that it can fail. Rarely, but it can happen.
I fully agree with what said by Nic here above. If I were you, I will not spend other money at Oxford. I would first bring the vase to one of the above said high end dealers. It may help you to save some money.
Be sure that, if they will judge it authentic, they will offer you probably more than what you will get at auction. At auction, you will not have that great amount of money because of the lack of documented provenance, which is more and more mandatory today at auctions, and on top of that you will have to pay their fees.
Believe me, for many cases of direct experience, I am not surprised at all that the vase has been accepted at an auction house other than one of the major ones. There are a lot of self-title “experts” there that knows less than many Forum’s members. Seriously. Stay away from minor auction houses.
I am not asking you to document the provenance here. I am asking you to explain why it was on sale there three months ago. If I were in your shoes, I would ask your seller about that. The vase is the same (Nixe, IT IS the same) and the pictures are not the same shown by you, so I can think of two possibilities, they had the vase in hands or they borrow the pictures from some other place. But in this last case your seller must know from where the pictures have been borrowed.
Giovanni
Dear Giovanni,
Many thanks for your answer and information. You have all the right to reject the piece.
By the way I am interested in know high end sellers as you say (so i will thank your information)
I agree with you in your observations of TL. TL test is the really test for age. Other things are not definitive, ok. But, if the piece is important i think is interesting study the weathering in the surface, oxides, inclusions. Perhaps all can be fake. But its difficult that all aspects of the piece works fine in a fake. Tl test fine, quemical composition fine, weathering bubbles (300-400 by mm) and inclusions fine, ink used fine... So I think as much elements of the piece you know i think is better because is difficult to fake all aspect of the piece. For example if the piece is irradiated (an pass TL is not easy with protocol) and the glazed is new, the analyisis of the surface in a good laboratory is going to detect problems with the new glaze. If the glaze is artificially dirty to seems old the TL test is going to detect that the piece is modern. The ICP MS guarantee that the clay used is the same used in this period in Jinghezen, following the studies of Pekin University. All can be fake, but its difficult to do a perfect fake, i think. The problem is that its a lot of money as you say. But i agree in TL test is the really important for the age. Anyway i believe that the piece is authentic on objective parameters but i recognize the piece is rare. I accept you disagree of the authenticity. In hands seems different. I have spoken many times with Ralph Kotalla who is who did tl test, he has spent a lot of time with my piece, He repeated three time the tl test and he say me that the piece is sure old. I trust in Ralf. Anyway I accept experts opinion are interesting for the age, and the most important for clasification, and determination of importance, value, relevance...and sense in the culture of origin.
About the provenance my seller say me the same and the same and the same. i have already spoke with him two times. I think he is good person. Anyway i can not demonstrate is fake because all scientific test are positive, so i am not going to claim. I keep it in my collection of ming porcelains. I like to study and i am going to try to study more.
Many thanks for your explanations
Dear Alejandro,
you can find on internet the site of Eskenazi and Marchant. Type Eskenazi asian art or Marchant asian art.
They are the two top dealers. There are others too but the word of those two is pure gold.
You can contact them and send them pictures or better, if you can go to London, fix an appointment.
Regards
Giovanni
I forwarded the report from Kotalla to a couple of experts and dealers in China.
And they just ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
Dear Xin,
I am sure you know in China there are experts and people who say is expert. When you see a scientific report of eleven pages of bubles, glazes, oxides and and quemical composition of an old porcelain pieces made in a homologated Laboratorie and you laugh, if the scientific report is well done, there are only two possibilities: first: ignorance, normally when you laugh till the unknown (is quite conmon) or bath faith in the sense that they prefer laugh before recognize the piece of other is authentic. As you an me are good persons, i prefer thinking that they have good faith and they have ignorance about scientific analysis. In China they dont like any kind of scientific analysis, they usually expert by eye.
If you dont like a scientific report you have to explain what is wrong in a scientific way. This is what i was waiting from you Xim. You always laugh and this is nice, i usually too, but laugh is not enough. If you say what is wrong of the report we can discuss and chat and take serious advances to discover the true.
I love laughing, i usually laugh with my friends when i go to have beers. But when i am analyzing a scientific report, i usually think to understand the report (not laugh) and if i disagree i show the thecnical mistakes. So i advice to your friends, if they want to be a serious experts of chinese porcelain, to read the reports, and to try to understand the meaning of the different elements that they study.
Anyway Xin, the good sense of humor is one of the best thing in the world, in my opinion.
Dear Mr. Xin Fawis ,
I am hopeful that
"Die allumfassende, bedingungslose, göttliche Liebe ist allgegenwärtig."
The all-encompassing, unconditional, divine love is omnipresent
and get an real name and address !?
best regards
Ralf Kotalla
Everbody know these seven unnamed experts !! well
? ? ? ? ? ? ?
what a quality information without any facts
www.kotalla.de in Germany
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