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Hi Birgit - my pleasure to post ....
Stuart
Yes, thanks for posting pictures of these jars. So there are actually six additional Chenghua doucai jars? The butterflies are very differently painted on the jar I found but the Enamels, base and mark etc seemed correct as far as I could tell. But it would have been fun if the green dragon plate sold at Bonhams for one million dollar was fake and the jar sold at Bukowsiks for 28,000 kroner was real. There is also a blue and white jar at I. M Chait stated to be Chenghua period and with a very conservative estimate. I'll see if I can find the link and post it later.
The jar from Bukowski is definitly NOT Chenghua ware. Look at the bird, so funny. 🤣 🤣 🤣
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Here is the jar from I. M. Chait. Sold for $17,000. Note how the blue and decoration is similar to some of the Chenghua period doucai jars. https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/40543221_rare-ming-imperial-blue-and-white-jar
Hi Avatar/Cory -
As with the Bukowski piece, the jar from I. M. Chait is not Chenghua or even 15th C ...
Attached images of a Chenghua period ‘Tian’ marked jar/cover, H. 18cm, decorated with three-clawed dragons in blue amongst fruiting melon vines to the body, the cover with two five-clawed dragons in red above waves/amongst clouds.
Unearthed in 1987, Imperial kiln site, Zhushan ...
Stuart
Thanks for sharing your opinion, Stuart. But could you eventually explain what makes you say it's not of the Chenghua period. There is a Chenghua period blue and white version of the doucai chicken cup for example and also an excavated blue and white jar of similar form, suggesting the jar at I. M Chait could be period.
Hi Avatar/Cory -
The overall drawing style of the dragons, melons, leafs, vines and small yellow flowers of the I. M Chait example is far two stiff/lifeless ...
Its all very 'mechanical' and to 'precise', with no individuality or freedom compared with the excavated example ...
Comparing the individual strokes and writing of the 'Tian' character on the Chait jar with genuine examples in the Gugong and NPM, Taipei, would indicate the execution of mark is also, IMO, clearly wrong ...
Just my own opinions though, so lets see what others may have to say after comparing the two pieces ...
Stuart
Well, there are two intact doucai jars with the same decoration. One at British Museum and one at Tokyo National Museum. https://research.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=30609001&objectId=227041&partId=1 https://www.tnm.jp/modules/r_collection/index.php?controller=dtl_img&size=L&colid=TG1002&t=type_s&id=34
It's true that the right leg tian of the tian mark is more bold written on the examples I can find online but I'm still not convinced the jar from I. M. Chait is fake. But let's not start up a discussion. There's also a Chenghua period copper red bowl sold at I. M. Chait. (Picture is copied from pinterest since I can't find the direct link) which is similar to an excavated bowl at Henan Museum.
Hi Avatar/Cory -
Two attached images of the BM jar, ex Mrs Walter Sedgwick Coll ...
Note the fine drawing of the melons, the varied, random shading/speckling of the blue cobalt, the slight divereniials in the drawing/size of the dragons palms/fingers and claws and the length/flow and movement of the elbow hair to the legs. All very spontaneous/expressive and free, and totally lacking in the Chait jar ...
Also compare the strokes of the ‘Tian’ character, especially the length and the way the character has been drawn. It’s executed with great individuality, expression and skill - again, totally absent from the Chait piece ...
The differences between the two pieces are quite obvious but, as before, just my own thoughts ...
I’am very familiar with the excavated copper red bowl but, unfortunately, can not enlarge the Chait bowl, so rather difficult to say anything on this piece - especially with only a single image ...
Stuart
I would not take what I. M. CHAIT states on their site/catalogs as the gospel truth. They were many years ago a much respected auction/dealers in respective arts. However over the last few years they really have dropped the ball, so to speak.
I have never actually bought anything from them and it has been a number of years since I tried to buy from them. The last time was a Qianlong inscribed jade boulder.
If I recall correctly, Peter used to work either full or part-time many moons ago when he was first starting out.
Mark
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