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Hi Lewis, ND, Mark, Vic and all -
Firstly - I really like plaque that you recently acquired Mark, a very nice example. But yes, you are quite right about the catalogue descriptions and the wording of such and yes, one must read and be aware of the T&C's - but how many do and know such?
The stated provenance - placed right next to the main 'description - went back to the 1920's. The day before the sale I sat down with one of Bonham's top people and explained why, IMO, this was not mark/period. (I understand several other opinions were sort due to the differing 'reactions' this piece had caused). The Bonhams representative, to give them there due, did not think this was a m/p piece either and conveyed that this was also the view of others who they had sort an opinion from.
However, as Vic says, 'the market will decide'. You only need two people who 'believes' an object is right - a 'sleeper' and has been 'missed' by the auction house, and the bidding can go crazy!!
I was in the room for the sale. I will add there were also several top dealers who 'specialise' in such pieces and two very well know Hong Kong buyers, both of which have a number of genuine Chenghua pieces within there collections, none of which bid on this piece!!
As for the 'verbal preamble', I quote:-
"Moving on to Lot 108 ladies and gentlemen, and there's been a great deal of interest in this piece, and I can start the bidding at £20,000" - at which point one of the ladies taking phone line bids held up her hand and shouted "£200,000" ... and away it went ....!!!
Auctions - there is no 'rhyme or reason' to such .....
Stuart
Is it a case of some people having more money than sense? I’d have expected the super-wealthy to be really fussy, only wanting the very best with the best provenance?
I think it’s possible that the provenance goes back to 1920 because that’s when it was made?
I know not everyone supports the hollow line theory, but when Allen says that neither he nor anyone he knows has seen hollow line on a piece that did not belong to 1850-1920 there must be some truth in it?
This plate may validate that theory? He does add that one shouldn’t rely on hollow line alone.
Nic
Hi ND -
How 'assiduous' or 'fussy' the people are who can afford to pay such amounts is an interesting point.
I will only say that all of the serious collectors, and indeed dealers, I know are incredibly diligent/focused when looking at any object, and if interested will study a piece at great length/in detail before deciding to bid or bye, whatever the estimate or price.
I will say that a large number of 'younger' Chinese were all over this dish when I viewed, taking multiple images and then sending these of to who knows where - chat rooms/discussion groups/dealers/potential buyers - but such practices has been going on for several years now. What 'knowledge' this younger element have I do not know, but they seem to appear then disappear fairly frequently, only to be replaced by others ....
As for 'more money then sense' - there are always such people ....
Stuart
Somehow I can understand it, as I just experienced it on a small scale. We’re furnishing a flat in a 1911 house and were buying some decoration in an antique market. We found a picture that we liked very much and it wasn’t expensive. At home we discovered that it wasn’t hand painted but one of these high quality reproductions with 3dimensional brush strokes. But as we liked it and could afford it - no problem. It’s just meant for decoration.
I think the rich buyers have a similar feeling for the items they buy. Good looking decoration that they can afford. Not something you really love like true collectors would.
Birgit
Thanks for the update Stuart.
It is interesting to note that even on a 99p start EBay auction you have to provide such details as a date range,reign etc yet no such requirement at Sotheby's,Christie's or Bonham's,just pages and pages of Terms and Conditions,their 'get out' clauses.
Vic
The plate was mark and period it seems. It appear at Poly's site with a pre-sale estimate at RMB 12,000,000 - 22,000,000. Auction should have taken place december 4, but strangely I can't seem to find the results at their site. https://www.polypm.com.cn/news/detail/4024/14
At last I found the results from the auction. The plate sold for RMB 14,950,000. So after all the buyer at Bonhams had vast amounts of both money and sense. Or at least he or she was able to sell the million dollar fake for two million dollars... http://www.polypm.com.cn/record/special/tlyl/PZ2045163/0/13
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