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Dear Stuart,
concur with you, all the items on sale by this seller are modern reproduction. It must be said that his description is practically saying that they are modern, if one reads with an obvious sense of critic.
BTW I would like to hear Greeno and other’s opinion about the bubbles in the pictures that I have shown.
Giovanni
@clayandbrush Yes, the two little Japanese bowls that I had evaluated recently had some lovely bubbles, but that did not stop them from being sixties Seto porcelain, probably 10 or less years old when I purchased them in a Missouri antique shop in nineteen seventy-five. I knew that was how that evaluation would most likely turn out, but yes those bubbles made me curious and it was good to find out. Oh yes, and under the right light they had an orange peel effect to the surface, as you told me no magic formulas.
@clayandbrush Yes! So, again, this does not eliminate the vases from being modern, only that the appear to be fired in a wood kiln, or perhaps fired at a temperature that was not a constant.
If, and only if, the bubbles were uniform could we conclude the piece as modern.
But, on the blue and white pieces, do you see how the bubbles form equally over the blue as the white?
The photo appears to be of a very small section of the vase, but it has been my experience that with early b&w porcelain, the bubbles seem to fall on the edges of the blue and over the white.
I can't comment further on the celadon photo.
Dear Greeno, let me explain why I said that I never check the bubbles detail.
Look at the first two pictures. They belong from two pieces that I bought during my first trip to China, many years ago, when I was totally green about Chinese ceramics.
Those details, seen together, seems an excellent example for those who believe in the importance of inspecting bubbles. The one on the left shows an uniform pattern of bubbles with limited variation in size, which according to the theory is pointing toward a piece fired in a modern kiln.
It is true in that case, it was a fake Kangxi dish, bearing the Kangxi mark.
The picture on the right too looks supporting the theory, because we have bubbles scattered here and there, and of various sizes. Indicating, according to the theory, a not uniform distribution of the temperature (which frankly is ridiculous, imagine different temperatures in such environment). An excellent example for the theory. But the fact is that it belongs from a modern copy of a Yaozhou bowl, a souvenir object bought at the visitor’ shop of the Shanghai Museum.
This alone is enough for totally disbelieving the theory.
One could say that “well, old looking bubbles can be faked but it remains that those on modern pieces remain well recognizable”. First at all, the bubbles on the modern Yaozhou style bowl are not faked nor copied. In making a copy for the tourists the bubbles detail is not something to take care about. It is just that the bubbles did come out that way.
But most important, look at the third picture. Unfortunately, while the first two picture I took with the microscope years ago, this last picture I have just made quickly with the camera, so it is less sharp and with less enlargement. But despite that we can see that the bubbles are fine, almost of the same size, and in a very dense pattern, exactly like those seen on modern ware according to the theory. But fact is that it belongs from a 17th century Ming b&w dish.
To me, this is enough for excluding this shortcut too. There are no shortcuts. Like reading, as often happens, things like slight variations in blue or red shade. Based on digital pictures, seen on digital devices of many different types. It makes no sense. For what I see, 90 per cent of people do not know, or do not take care, about the White Balance setting of the camera (despite being an extremely simple task). For that reason, we read about “picture take in shadow” or “picture take in direct Sun”. It has no sense. Both pictures are wrong, if the white balance has not been set accordingly.
We are judging items only by means of a digital image. The first, really important point then is the painting style. The rest is highly questionable.
Regards,
Giovanni
@clayandbrush Thank you, and I see your point.
In my response I did not address the celadon Yaozhao dish because I don't think the rule for celadon is the same as with blue & white, just as it is not the same with langyao, where by the nature of the glaze, even modern pieces have the irregular bubbles. We have no dissagreement here.
But, with blue and white wares, the cobalt has an effect on the distribution of the bubbles on older pieces that is different in modern pieces, and the manner of firing also creates variation in size throughout the white slip, with the exception of imperial kilns that generally produce very fine bubbles that are hard to distinguish any difference in size (which I recall saying earlier - I think).
I didn't look at your 3rd pic in the second post until now. Given you already stated it was 17th c., it is a bit meaningless to give my opinion, but for what it's worth I do think it looks like a wood fired kiln distribution of bubbles, and quite different than the 1st photo you posted which you state is modern.
No one rule in determining age is sufficient to live and die by, and I do agree that the bubble size rule is tricky, so perhaps it is not the most reliable tool, and certainly not the first or only tool to use.
However, my broader point is that if a seller post photos with sufficient clarity that you can see the bubble formations, then as a buyer you can be assured that the photo has enough resolution to also analyze other important details of the piece (wear, color, paste quality, execution of design) with a higher degree of certainty that what you're looking at is accurately depicted.
Your experience allowed you to assess these 'transitional' vases as copies, but less experience eyes, including my own, appreciate the benefit of a clear & close up look.
But your words are taken with great appreciation.
Seems the vase sold for more than 4500 dollars. Peter talks about it in his weekly video where he predict it will sell between 4000 and 6000 dollars. So who was right and who was wrong - Peter Combs or the people here?
@avatar That's not really a fair question if you think about it. How does the amount something sells for determines authenticity? Or, have I missed your point?
My apologies if it was an unfair question. I just thought it was a little strange that Peter talks about how it is correct with the base, etc. and that they are copying these like crazy in China now and what people should pay attention to. But then again he doesn't follow up on the sale in his latest video which is a little disappointing ...
This one from ebayer yan_4467 is definitely a FAKE! Last year I bought a similar one for study. I have seen a lot of those fakes since a year ago.
Look at this one below, very high quality:
Greetings!
Xin
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
Not for anything but wouldn't it make more sense if you posted the similar one you bought for study?
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