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Hello!
I am new to Chinese porcelain collecting and new to this forum.
For my own education I was wondering what you guys thought of the stuff being sold on Ebay by boss_antiques. For example, this "Ming" Kraak plate. Although I own examples of Kangxi & Quianlong porcelain, I have never handled any Ming pieces. I know they are supposed to have "firing irregularities" which means grit and other things, but this plate seems... wrong somehow. The inconsistencies are too regular and the pits and holes on the front seem like they were created after firing. The glaze is muted because it's supposed to be a shipwreck piece, but it all seems too good to be true. There is a hairline crack, however, which I imagine would be hard to replicate in a fake.
What do you think?
Thank you,
Steve
Hi Steve, welcome to the forum.
This one appears to have the look of an authentic Ming piece, but I can see exactly why you are confused - it is 100% too clean and does look like a copy. The first thing I did was to look at all of the other items being offered by this seller and I was expecting to see all fakes. But strangely I see a mixture of authentic Ming Swatow wares and what appears to be many copies. In fact, one of the Ming items matches one in my collection and it does appear of the period with much wear. The authentic pieces I see are commonly found in SE Asia but many others appear questionable and are copies - What a jumble. I would stay away from this seller. Back to your item, I wonder if this is not modern, but rather a later copy of Ming style or even Japanese kosumetsuke. We have some Ming experts here (Stuart and Giovanni) wonder if they will jump in here in time as this is really a mystery for me.
George
While I am by no means an expert on this type of ware I have concerns with the label being a shipwreck. I don't believe this is the case at all.
Like George would appreciate the views of Stuart or Giovanni.
Mark
Gosh, interesting piece! I am a complete novice but I’d have said Chinese, maybe a later copy like a George suggested. The painting style looks ok for Chinese? Not sure if the foot is correct for Ming. It will be interesting to know what others think.
Nic
I don't know. It does seem rather small, incredibly clean and doesn't look quite like shipwreck items.
It may be unreasonable of me, but I am always suspicious when I see a seller wearing gloves.
Dear all,
in my opinion it is Chinese, although with some odd features, like the single blue circle around the foot, that usually is a pair, the thick foot, the circle line below the rim that it has been made in many short traits.
But all in all, although being myself not expert on Japanese ware, it is Chinese to me and a shipwreck item as shown by the degraded glaze. Almost no shining.
Being the base glazed, if Japanese it should have the spur marks.
Stuart is more expert than me on this, let see if we will agree or not.
Regards,
Giovanni
Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.
If I were making fakes and selling something as "shipwreck" I'd figure out a way to soak the piece in an acidic bath of some sort to remove the gloss; it's probably not too hard to do.
Someday I hope to be able to purchase an authentic Ming work but for now will stay away from this seller.
Regards,
Steve
Hi Steve -
Kraak ware is a special subject within itself, and not really an area I have much interest in but ...
An interesting piece with some strange features, especially the exterior design of three strokes then circles, which is rather unusual, and different then that commonly seen on such wares ...
These wares varied dramatically both in quality and size, I’ve seen dishes ranging in size from 20cm up to over 50cm ...
Attached images for comparison, the black/white and group images all from the Hatcher Junk Cargo, the two dishes, including an image of the more typical exterior design, from the Princesshof Nation Museum of Ceramics, Leeuwarden, the Netherlands ...
If you google ‘Kraak wares’, you should found plenty others to compare with your piece ...
The Japanese, as mentioned by Birgit, copied these wares extensively, but the overall designs and blue tone are somewhat different ...
As with Giovianni, I think this is Chinese and undoubtedly a shipwreck piece - the exterior design would need more some research though ...
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
Thank you, this is educational.
I have searched for Kraak ware on line but it's hard to find photos of the backs of these plates so your illustrations are appreciated.
Regards,
Steve
Hi Steve,
The absolute Bible for Kraak porcelain is Maura Ronaldi’s Kraak porcelain:A moment in the history of Trade”.
Very expensive but a worthwhile addition to any library.
it breaks down into subgroups with numerous illustrations including Japanese and European copies of the 17th and 18th c.
if you type into google the title and then press images you will see many illustrations and text from the book.
Bird on a rock pattern is one of my favourites.
Vic
Hi Steve -
Another excellent publication on such wares is ‘Kraak Porcelain: The Rise of Global Trade in the Late 16th and Early 17th Century’, publishes by Jorge Welsh Books, 2008, with introductions and entries by Teresa Canepa and fifty nine examples, with some exceptional and rare pieces illustrated, although rather expensive now ...
I attend the exhibition and book launch in 2008 ...
Stuart
Thank you Vic and Stuart for the recommendation.
Too bad these books haven't been re-issued.
Hi Steve,
I think this is not an original Kraak plate. The foot ring is very different to a foot of an original Kraak piece. Also the rest of the backside doesn't convince me at all. I just compared it to pieces in Maura Rinaldi's book and to two pieces that I own and I think it pretends to be a plate of around 1595-1610 but it isn't. I would stay away from this piece.
Chris
I agree with Birgit. It's an old Japanese copy.
Chris is right. The foot rim is not right for Kraak ware. You can see the body/material is different from the one from Chinese Jingdezhen. The material is too white and clean and the shape of the foot rim is too perfect. The painting looks so dumb. Brush strokes are very strange.
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